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Topic: [XMR] Monero Speculation - page 1754. (Read 3313576 times)

legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
September 16, 2015, 02:33:48 PM
...
1) ... We must keep in mind that orphan block based arguments will also fail since these are based on the presence of a base emission.
...


As I noted a page or two ago, I see this result in Peter R's paper, but I don't intuitively understand it

It is easy to understand. The cost you incur for including another transaction and potentially having your block orphaned is losing the reward, measured against the benefit of another transaction fee. You can try to construct something based on the cost being losing the transaction fee but it becomes a snake eating its own tail.

Also, consider the very first transaction you might add to a block. There is absolutely no downside to adding it even if you gain nothing at all (no reward or previous transaction fees to lose). If a fee market works, it has to work for every single transaction in a block, including the first one.

legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
September 16, 2015, 02:10:58 PM
...
1) ... We must keep in mind that orphan block based arguments will also fail since these are based on the presence of a base emission.
...


As I noted a page or two ago, I see this result in Peter R's paper, but I don't intuitively understand it. Do you? Why is orphan risk any different whether the source of a miner's revenue is a coinbase transaction in a given block vs fees from transactions in a given block?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
September 16, 2015, 01:55:26 PM
I have purchased over 15 K XMR today.

If you start selling, I will intensify my buying.
I am working hard again to increase the market cap of Monero and to make it more appealing speculative asset. I hope there are others who think the same way and are also interested in making money rather than lose it.  Wink

I have so many Moneros currently that it is in my best interest to increase the market cap.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1050
Monero Core Team
September 16, 2015, 01:08:37 PM

The advantage that Monero currently has over virtually every POW coin and this includes Bitcoin, is that Monero has a current working solution to the scaling of blocksize question. One needs two things 1) Adaptive limits 2) A tail emission. Solving this problem without a tail emission is far from obvious, In fact I am not even convinced one can even create a viable fee market in the absence of an emission. There is a reason why there is so little progress with the blocksize debate in Bitcoin.

It sounds like you're saying that it's impossible to solve the blocksize limit without having a tail emission.  If that is what you're saying, will you elaborate please?  
  
I do understand that both of those are advantages that Monero has to bitcoin and I think they will play more of a factor going forward.  
  
Also, do you think that Satoshi believed bitcoin could work with transaction-fee only mining and as a deflationary asset... or was it intentionally crippled from the beginning?

I will elaborate on this.

The first question one needs to ask before even considering adaptive blocksize limits is: Can a fee market actually work in the absence of a base emission?

1) We first consider a blocksize large enough (or effectively infinite). In this scenario competition among miners will drive fees towards zero since there is no scarcity. This will in turn cause the difficulty and consequently the security of the crypto currency to collapse. We must keep in mind that orphan block based arguments will also fail since these are based on the presence of a base emission. This is in fact the very legitimate fear of the small block proponents.

2) In the second case we consider a fixed blocksize, where the blocksize is small enough to impact fees. In this scenario we have a potentially infinite demand with a fixed supply. In theory fees therefore would go to infinity. We must keep in mind that as the legitimate demand rises towards the fixed limit, It becomes economically attractive for miners with a even small percentage of the hash rate to spam the network in order to profit by raising the overall fees.  At this point only external competitive factors can stop the fees from rising to infinity. These take the form of fiat payment methods and other crypto currencies with the latter being not affected by a fixed blocksize limit. The impact of these external competitive factors is to reduce demand by devaluing the entire crypto currency. This will be delayed by miner spam, as miners will increase the spam in order to preserve the dwindling purchasing power of their fees until the system collapses to little or no transaction demand leading the first case above.

The problem as I see it is that the system is inherently unstable. Either the mining revenue collapses first or the purchasing power of the mining revenue collapses first. We now come to the next question. Can one create an adaptive blocksize limit formula that does not converge as time increases towards (1) or (2) above? My instinct tells me no, particularly since the network has no way to measure the key parameter namely the amount of fees collected per block due to out of bound payments to miners. Furthermore there have been many brilliant minds looking at this issue and they have not come up with a solution. Proving this negative, in a rigorous mathematical sense, is of course another matter entirely.

What the tail emission in Monero does is provide a stable anchor outside of the control of the miners on top of which an adaptive blocksize limit and a fee market can actually develop, by avoiding the instability above.

One final note. Why is this posted in the Monero speculation thread? The answer is very simple: Monero is the other crypto currency with the latter being not affected by a fixed blocksize limit above. In the collapsing valuation of (2) the valuation has to go somewhere and there a good possibility that Monero will capture some of this valuation.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 500
hello world
September 16, 2015, 01:04:41 PM

I'm a small fish compared to a lot of you and it's also weird to see that my bids are >10% of the whole bid side, I try my best to increase the liquidity a bit and hopefully earning some BTC/XMR along the way, it would be great if more people would do this, even with small amounts.

in the past many of us did it, we parked every coin we didnt use on the bids. but then polo changed and many of us refused to register with their passports, so it became difficult to get bigger money out of polo.
ever tried to withdrawl 10k with a daily 2k limit? its not fun i tell you, i do not have time for this, so i dont do it at all. this is very sad, but it  does not exclude me as a buyer. i am just not able to support the bids like i was used to, but i still buy if price is right.

i am also sacred to deposit big amounts with my 2k withdrawl limit. maybe they will just freeze my account one day and wait for more info since they see me trading big amounts but only withdrawl 2k per day....no no no, way too risky i am sorry.

i do not trust them
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
September 16, 2015, 12:56:55 PM
I finished my math excercies and bought almost 8000 XMR more.

I have to admit, I like the "new" you. Way better like this!

Plot twist: TC is buying on margin.   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
September 16, 2015, 12:55:07 PM
More than 14 k XMR have been bought today.
There is only one direction and it still is up.
I am buying because the emission curve is now getting steeper and the price is still undervalued.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
September 16, 2015, 12:15:38 PM
I finished my math excercies and bought almost 8000 XMR more.

I have to admit, I like the "new" you. Way better like this!
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
September 16, 2015, 12:07:58 PM
I finished my math excercies and bought almost 8000 XMR more.

You definitely have been a lot more bullish lately. I am bullish too. There has been a lot of good news. What specific reason cause you to increase your position recently?  Personally I am not a gamer but am excited about crypto kingdom anyway because I know others are. I also love all the recent xmr updates in github.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
September 16, 2015, 12:03:17 PM
I finished my math excercies and bought almost 8000 XMR more.
hero member
Activity: 686
Merit: 500
September 16, 2015, 11:55:19 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.

BBR's Wild Keccak PoW requires a copy of the blockchain, as random bits of it are used in the scratchpad.

That's a huge incentive to run a full node.  No node, no (solo) mining.

Shall we schedule the hard fork?  How's next Tuesday for you?   Cheesy

There are several cool things I love about boolberry (which I wont list in this thread). Unfortunately as a currency it also has a few major drawbacks compared to monero such as:

1. much smalller community/development team
2. much harder to spend (no xmr.to or shapeshift)
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
September 16, 2015, 11:32:02 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.



Uh...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-spreadcoin-true-decentralization-no-pools-testing-new-masternodes-715435

You can still make pools:
Ask people to deposit an amount greater than the block reward. Keep that amount the day they cheat.
Give a different work to each miner, with a specific coinbase address. If one cheat you know which one it is, keep their deposit and close their account.

Im sure it was discussed before.

At length...I wasn't addressing that at all, just responding to "I don't really understand why no coin tried this before."
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
September 16, 2015, 11:19:17 AM
Bottom buyer for today so far Grin




Liquidity near-price is pretty bad, for example at the moment there is almost zero liquidity between 210k and 220k. When the price is relatively stable it's pretty easy to make some BTC/XMR by market making as a lot of people just market buy/sell.

I'm a small fish compared to a lot of you and it's also weird to see that my bids are >10% of the whole bid side, I try my best to increase the liquidity a bit and hopefully earning some BTC/XMR along the way, it would be great if more people would do this, even with small amounts.

It will ofcourse mean that it will be less profitable to earn some coins in stable periods by market making but more liquidity especially close to the price will be more attractive to buyers/investors and traders.

So ladies and gents place your bids (and asks)!
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Still wild and free
September 16, 2015, 11:06:27 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.



Uh...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-spreadcoin-true-decentralization-no-pools-testing-new-masternodes-715435

You can still make pools:
Ask people to deposit an amount greater than the block reward. Keep that amount the day they cheat.
Give a different work to each miner, with a specific coinbase address. If one cheat you know which one it is, keep their deposit and close their account.

Im sure it was discussed before.
legendary
Activity: 1105
Merit: 1000
September 16, 2015, 10:34:06 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.



Uh...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-spreadcoin-true-decentralization-no-pools-testing-new-masternodes-715435
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
September 16, 2015, 10:25:16 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.

BBR's Wild Keccak PoW requires a copy of the blockchain, as random bits of it are used in the scratchpad.

That's a huge incentive to run a full node.  No node, no (solo) mining.

Shall we schedule the hard fork?  How's next Tuesday for you?   Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1000
Want privacy? Use Monero!
September 16, 2015, 09:45:24 AM
Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

Indeed, I agree. I don't really understand why no coin tried this before.
It wouldn't be that hard to implement I think. You just need to sign your mined block with your private key of the address to where you received the minted coins

Certainly easy in BTC. But also possible with XMR I think.

legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1000
Want privacy? Use Monero!
September 16, 2015, 09:34:49 AM
The only core flaw I can still see in Monero is no way to incentivize full nodes unless they are also miners.  
  
You'll have to excuse my recent crusade on this topic, and I know we have spoken about this before.  I believe last time the consensus was that perhaps a feature could be added into Monero GUI to send optional donations to full nodes along with transaction fees.  
  
I feel like this would be better than nothing, but I still think this issue should be revisited (especially in light of Adam Back's recent comments: http://coinjournal.net/adam-back-on-the-overlooked-importance-of-full-nodes-in-bitcoin/)  
  
I'm not saying drop the database optimization and GUI for this, but I would like the community to continue brainstorming on ways to make this happen in the Monero universe.  We already have a TKO on all other cryptos; if we can figure out a way to financially compensate full nodes that will go from a Technical Knockout to a Triple Knockout (even a lottery system is better than nothing...  Run a full node for a chance to have all node donations for the week deposited into your address).  
  
Of course, I'm aware it's important we don't break faith with the social contract, nor try to do too much with the core Monero protocol.  Simple is best....  So maybe a voluntary donation system built into the GUI really is the most elegant solution.  
  
I still want to hear if anyone has any other ideas though.  

I don't know if it's technically possible, but would be cool to just have a "block sync market"
If you need blocks, you publish your offer in the P2P network. Someone can just decide he'll take your offer.
An offer could consists of a specific list of blocks (or a block interval, to have a bit more privacy) and the payment for that download.


edit:
Quote
If you can stream payments to a cam girl with streamium, you can stream payments to a node for syncing your wallet.

exactly what I was thinking Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1004
September 16, 2015, 09:13:40 AM
...

It doesn't suffer from glaring flaws like someone needing to pick magic numbers on the block size

No, instead of a magic blocksize number, Monero is using a magic adaptive algorithm. Someone had to set parameters either way; params which aren't necessary so long as there's orphan risk to miners. Why not let the market find the equilibrium between orphan risk and transaction fees, and therefore optimal blockspace?



nor failure of the penalty mechanism once the rewards run out

I see the result in Peter R's paper where the cost of blockspace to the miner is dependant on reward being greater than zero. I don't have an intuitive understanding of this. I would think that it shouldn't matter where exactly the cost of losing an orphan race is coming from to a miner (eg, new issuance vs fees). Any thoughts?



nor expecting an open competitive market to offer excess profits for no particularly good reason.
...

Because that's almost always what happens when humans are free to act voluntarily in the presence of demand for something? Though I would not expect mining profits to be "excess" for long.





Longer term I think the best way to incentivize nodes that don't exist for some other purpose (mining or people -- or perhaps only businesses -- who want to fully verify their own transactions) is with a fee-for-service model. So if people are connecting as clients to full nodes because they are using lightweight wallets or something like that, they can pay a small fee for that service. At which point supply and demand should work out the necessary incentives.
...

Yes, exactly. Why do you think that wouldn't work for blocksize?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
September 16, 2015, 06:04:42 AM
The only core flaw I can still see in Monero is no way to incentivize full nodes unless they are also miners.  
  
You'll have to excuse my recent crusade on this topic, and I know we have spoken about this before.  I believe last time the consensus was that perhaps a feature could be added into Monero GUI to send optional donations to full nodes along with transaction fees.  
  
I feel like this would be better than nothing, but I still think this issue should be revisited (especially in light of Adam Back's recent comments: http://coinjournal.net/adam-back-on-the-overlooked-importance-of-full-nodes-in-bitcoin/)  
  
I'm not saying drop the database optimization and GUI for this, but I would like the community to continue brainstorming on ways to make this happen in the Monero universe.  We already have a TKO on all other cryptos; if we can figure out a way to financially compensate full nodes that will go from a Technical Knockout to a Triple Knockout (even a lottery system is better than nothing...  Run a full node for a chance to have all node donations for the week deposited into your address).  
  
Of course, I'm aware it's important we don't break faith with the social contract, nor try to do too much with the core Monero protocol.  Simple is best....  So maybe a voluntary donation system built into the GUI really is the most elegant solution.  
  
I still want to hear if anyone has any other ideas though.  

Well, the two-birds-one-stone approach to this problem is the subject of my (hopefully forgivable) crusade - to prevent pool mining. If you stop pool mining, you remove the "mining without a node" option. So, miners *have* to run nodes. Thus, if you bring back true solo mining, you bring back incentivizing running a node. Indeed, this was the original model for supporting the network. Pool mining, IMO, is a tragedy of the unregulated commons.

And now back to the weather. Damn, bitcoin's diving eh?
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