[XPM] [ANN] Primecoin Release - First Scientific Computing Cryptocurrency - page 37.

hawas

newbie

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@porcupine87

We can make some calculations

let's see, I don't know the hash size, but say it is 256 bits, i.e. ~10^25 possible numbers.
You need aprox. 100 bytes to store a prime origin, so if you have 100TB of space, you can store up to 10^12 chains, disregarding how many years you need to find them, we will assume you already have them stored for now.

Now the chance that you have a good chain for a particular block(hash) is 10^12/10^25 = 10^-13
That's it, you will hit a suitable one every 10 trillion blocks!

Now on the time needed to calculate those chains, well if you somehow manage to get 1 million chains/day, you will need 1 million days, ~3000 years.

So, well...

porcupine87

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

hm

Quote from: mikaelh on October 28, 2013, 01:44:26 PM

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 01:04:13 PM

that does work neither.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+31847690383992637018076344290348582925915863984630344106427592361057663457100
You get a remainder of 15041030773099237554117129289223520172513247948977130670708248520342605621500

Ah, you are right and I missed the decimal point when I did the division.

Primecoin actually uses a special block header hash which is different from the "block hash". It's not normally displayed anywhere.

The block header hash of block 200 000 is:
0xc4cb2d790a4edf8a9e11615b22b1c45eb0688c793a1d07a6464704750f6d9448 = 89012302118294945913527852560669227610448148164408794304935511321715883742280

And that does divide the prime origin:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+89012302118294945913527852560669227610448148164408794304935511321715883742280

Thank you, but somehow not really satisfying. And you don't just making that number up? Cheesy

I looked now a little bit into the source code. And I thought - cool - I can just make my own miner by changing the existing miner. But now after a few hours of searching and looking around I realise it is impossible to build a working binary out of the source code. I mean impossible for a normalo. I read this one here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/building-headless-bitcoin-and-bitcoin-qt-on-windows-149479
-> crazy. Everything seems to be easy but not building out of the source...

arnuschky

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Activity: 518

Merit: 502

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 12:51:33 PM

Quote from: jh00 on October 28, 2013, 11:07:38 AM

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

So I find Primecoin very intereseting. As far as I understand, the work of proof works as follows(I read the paper): I have to find a prime chain with a certain length (9.93 at the moment) and the prime origin has to be divied by the hash of the last block. So my question is: For me as miner wouldn't it be the easiest way to find chains of the length of 9.95 all the time and save them persisetent and then just buy a lot of RAM to put the list in there and then just test to find the right divident to the last hash? Wouldn't that be much faster than try to find new prime chains all the time?

In theory it works. In practice it will not be useful because you would need to generate at least 2^256 (or maybe 2^240 after heavy optimizations) header hashes to find one that is reusable. It works, but you won't be able to find a block this way in 10000 years.

No, I don't wanted to find a hash that matches. I wanted to find a lot of chains with the sufficient length and than just check, if there is prime origin of a chain that can be dividet by the given hash.

I always wondered the exact same thing. Question is: how many 9-chains are there?

mikaelh

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Activity: 301

Merit: 250

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 01:04:13 PM

that does work neither.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+31847690383992637018076344290348582925915863984630344106427592361057663457100
You get a remainder of 15041030773099237554117129289223520172513247948977130670708248520342605621500

Ah, you are right and I missed the decimal point when I did the division.

Primecoin actually uses a special block header hash which is different from the "block hash". It's not normally displayed anywhere.

The block header hash of block 200 000 is:
0xc4cb2d790a4edf8a9e11615b22b1c45eb0688c793a1d07a6464704750f6d9448 = 89012302118294945913527852560669227610448148164408794304935511321715883742280

And that does divide the prime origin:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+89012302118294945913527852560669227610448148164408794304935511321715883742280

porcupine87

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

hm

Quote from: mikaelh on October 28, 2013, 11:29:35 AM

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

So then I tried it on block 200 000:
http://primecoin.21stcenturymoneytalk.org/index.php

The prime origin (decimal) is:
8714709782728338749181494073917835353396414535327396757824121441708798494550544 8916205980486400
The hash of block 199 999:
12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

But in the division, there is a remainder:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

It's not the hash of the previous block, it's the hash of the current block that needs to divide the prime origin.

The hash of block 200 000 is:
0x4669276a932f5b16a718943a4930b5381bf9c7780ed45b2a751171d3feda174c = 31847690383992637018076344290348582925915863984630344106427592361057663457100

That hash divides the prime origin evenly.

that does work neither.
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+31847690383992637018076344290348582925915863984630344106427592361057663457100
You get a remainder of 15041030773099237554117129289223520172513247948977130670708248520342605621500

porcupine87

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

hm

Quote from: jh00 on October 28, 2013, 11:07:38 AM

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

So I find Primecoin very intereseting. As far as I understand, the work of proof works as follows(I read the paper): I have to find a prime chain with a certain length (9.93 at the moment) and the prime origin has to be divied by the hash of the last block. So my question is: For me as miner wouldn't it be the easiest way to find chains of the length of 9.95 all the time and save them persisetent and then just buy a lot of RAM to put the list in there and then just test to find the right divident to the last hash? Wouldn't that be much faster than try to find new prime chains all the time?

In theory it works. In practice it will not be useful because you would need to generate at least 2^256 (or maybe 2^240 after heavy optimizations) header hashes to find one that is reusable. It works, but you won't be able to find a block this way in 10000 years.

No, I don't wanted to find a hash that matches. I wanted to find a lot of chains with the sufficient length and than just check, if there is prime origin of a chain that can be dividet by the given hash.

Quote

Since it's open source, if you believe that this is a better way to mine, you can go ahead and implement it.

No, I am sure I am not good enough in programming. I am just theoretical interested and pretty sure that there is a hitch in my approach.

But if someone is deep in this subject and could point out in which files there is the mining algorithm I would be glad.

mikaelh

sr. member

Activity: 301

Merit: 250

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

So then I tried it on block 200 000:
http://primecoin.21stcenturymoneytalk.org/index.php

The prime origin (decimal) is:
8714709782728338749181494073917835353396414535327396757824121441708798494550544 8916205980486400
The hash of block 199 999:
12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

But in the division, there is a remainder:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

It's not the hash of the previous block, it's the hash of the current block that needs to divide the prime origin.

The hash of block 200 000 is:
0x4669276a932f5b16a718943a4930b5381bf9c7780ed45b2a751171d3feda174c = 31847690383992637018076344290348582925915863984630344106427592361057663457100

That hash divides the prime origin evenly.

jh00

newbie

Activity: 39

Merit: 0

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

So I find Primecoin very intereseting. As far as I understand, the work of proof works as follows(I read the paper): I have to find a prime chain with a certain length (9.93 at the moment) and the prime origin has to be divied by the hash of the last block. So my question is: For me as miner wouldn't it be the easiest way to find chains of the length of 9.95 all the time and save them persisetent and then just buy a lot of RAM to put the list in there and then just test to find the right divident to the last hash? Wouldn't that be much faster than try to find new prime chains all the time?

In theory it works. In practice it will not be useful because you would need to generate at least 2^256 (or maybe 2^240 after heavy optimizations) header hashes to find one that is reusable. It works, but you won't be able to find a block this way in 10000 years.

mustyoshi

sr. member

Activity: 287

Merit: 250

Quote from: porcupine87 on October 28, 2013, 10:22:56 AM

Hey guys, I have a few questions. I would be happy, if someone could answer me these.

So I find Primecoin very intereseting. As far as I understand, the work of proof works as follows(I read the paper): I have to find a prime chain with a certain length (9.93 at the moment) and the prime origin has to be divied by the hash of the last block. So my question is: For me as miner wouldn't it be the easiest way to find chains of the length of 9.95 all the time and save them persisetent and then just buy a lot of RAM to put the list in there and then just test to find the right divident to the last hash? Wouldn't that be much faster than try to find new prime chains all the time?

So then I tried it on block 200 000:
http://primecoin.21stcenturymoneytalk.org/index.php

The prime origin (decimal) is:
8714709782728338749181494073917835353396414535327396757824121441708798494550544 8916205980486400
The hash of block 199 999:
12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

But in the division, there is a remainder:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

Thanks for help Wink

Since it's open source, if you believe that this is a better way to mine, you can go ahead and implement it. But keep in mind that when we hit dif 10 all 9 chains will become useless. So if I were you, I'd start producing 10 chains instead of 9 chains.

porcupine87

hero member

Activity: 546

Merit: 500

hm

Hey guys, I have a few questions. I would be happy, if someone could answer me these.

So I find Primecoin very intereseting. As far as I understand, the work of proof works as follows(I read the paper): I have to find a prime chain with a certain length (9.93 at the moment) and the prime origin has to be divied by the hash of the last block. So my question is: For me as miner wouldn't it be the easiest way to find chains of the length of 9.95 all the time and save them persisetent and then just buy a lot of RAM to put the list in there and then just test to find the right divident to the last hash? Wouldn't that be much faster than try to find new prime chains all the time?

So then I tried it on block 200 000:
http://primecoin.21stcenturymoneytalk.org/index.php

The prime origin (decimal) is:
8714709782728338749181494073917835353396414535327396757824121441708798494550544 8916205980486400
The hash of block 199 999:
12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

But in the division, there is a remainder:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=87147097827283387491814940739178353533964145353273967578241214417087984945505448916205980486400+divided+by+12600527268990194816109317079654455295674413904799950143178505281837028536927

Thanks for help Wink

arnuschky

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Activity: 518

Merit: 502

Quote from: Sentinelrv on October 25, 2013, 08:42:31 PM

Quote from: arnuschky on October 24, 2013, 04:49:29 PM

Thanks, I'll wait for the full transcript then.

Here you go...

thanks.

masterOfDisaster

sr. member

Activity: 321

Merit: 250

Quote from: smolen on October 26, 2013, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: Sentinelrv on October 25, 2013, 08:42:31 PM

Here you go...
http://ge.tt/61I4EDw/v/0

For the sake of search button! Could you post plain-text version here?

...until it may be integrated in the original post...

Sunny King Community Interview 2 - Oct 24 2013 transcript link Cheesy

An interview regarding peercoin and lots more

Code:


Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:28 pm]
:
hi all
JustaBitofTime
[24|Oct 10:29 pm]
:
Hey Sunny, nice to have you with us. Are you ready to get
started?
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:29 pm]
:
yes John i m ready
JustaBitofTime
[24|Oct 10:30 pm]
:
Coolbeans94 wanted to know about Peercoin's long term
approach, he asks "27. Is its design more for long
-
term
security and sustainability? How does that relate to Bitcoin’s
longterm vision?(Coolbeans94)"
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:31 pm]
:
@Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM are designed to last.
PPC is designed with energy efficiency, XPM is designed
with energy multiuse. Bitcoin has a long term uncertainty as
to whether transaction fees can sustain good enough level of
secu
rity. Before that the main concern is how to balance
transaction volume and transaction fee levels. Currently I get
the feeling that bitcoin developers favor very low transaction
fees and very high transaction volume, to be competitive
against centralized
systems (paypal, visa, mastercard etc) in
terms of transaction volume, to the point of sacrificing
decentralization. This also brings major uncertainties to
bitcoin's future.
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:32 pm]
:
@Coolbeans 94. From my point of view, I think the
cryptocurrency movement needs at least one 'backbone'
currency, or more, that maintains high degree of
decentralization, maintains high level of security, but not
nec
essarily providing high volume of transactions. Thinking
of savings accounts and gold coins, you don't transact them at
high velocity but they form the backbone of the monetary
systems.
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:33 pm]
:
@Coolbeans 94. Pure proof
-
of
-
work systems such as bitcoin
is not 100% suitable for this task. This is because transaction
fee is not a reliable incentive to sustain network security. If
the mining generati
on amount is kept constant (there have
been several such attempts in altcoins) it would work better
security
-
wise but then it would also significantly weaken the
scarcity property of the currency. XPM's inflation model is
designed in such a way that it cou
ld serve as backbone
currency better than bitcoin if needed, because it could
maintain high security reliably for longer, with reasonably
good scarcity property as well. Of course that's only from
architect's point of view, whether or not it would be chose
n
by the market is a whole different matter.
JustaBitofTime
[24|Oct 10:33 pm]
:
Along those lines the community wanted to know ""If the tax
fees are to
remain fixed at 0.01 and Peercoin becomes widely
adopted, (Thus a sharp rise in value) the fees could become
too much for microtransactions. What would happen in this
case? What solutions do you imagine to get around the
microtransaction issue?"
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:35 pm]
:
@Coolbeans 94. PPC is designed to serve even better as a
backbone currency. The
proof
-
of
-
stake technology in PPC is
not only energy
efficient;
it also maintains high level of
security without relying on transaction fee. Thus PPC could
be safely designed with strong scarcity property yet serving
well as backbone currency.
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:36 pm]
:
@Coolbeans 94. Both PPC and XPM use protocol enforced
transaction fees, which reflects my preference that high
transaction volume is discouraged in
favor of serving as
backbone currencies.
JustaBitofTime
[24|Oct 10:37 pm]
:
Speaking of security, there's often quite a bit of debate
surrounding the PPC vs XPM ch
eckpointing. 27.5 Will
checkpoints be optional like they are in XPM in the next
client version?
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:38 pm]
:
@transaction fees: Right now if we are
talking about
micropayments in the US$1 range, both PPC and XPM still
handle them with much lower overhead than credit card
network. In the long term micropayments should be provided
by centralized providers, or a less decentralized network
optimized for h
igh capacity transaction processing.
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:38 pm]
:
@transaction fees: On the other hand there is no promise that
minimum transaction
fee wouldn't be adjusted. If processing
capacity of personal computers continues to advance at the
current pace, both max block size and minimum transaction
fee could very well be adjusted at some point. However I do
take a very cautious approach to adjust
ing transaction fees, as
opposed to bitcoin devs. The impact to the fitness of the
currency as a backbone currency is of great concerns to me.
Sunny King
[24|Oct 10:4
0 pm]
:
[comment]
no more characters allowed. please read the rest in the linked document ;)
[/comment]

smolen

hero member

Activity: 524

Merit: 500

Quote from: Sentinelrv on October 25, 2013, 08:42:31 PM

Here you go...
http://ge.tt/61I4EDw/v/0

For the sake of search button! Could you post plain-text version here?

mobile

sr. member

Activity: 400

Merit: 250

the sun is shining, but the ice is still slippery

Reserved.

Sentinelrv

sr. member

Activity: 650

Merit: 318

Quote from: arnuschky on October 24, 2013, 04:49:29 PM

Thanks, I'll wait for the full transcript then.

Here you go...

http://ge.tt/61I4EDw/v/0

Also, some people made it known to me that they wanted to volunteer to be on the Peercoin/Primecoin team, but they didn't finish filling out the survey to sign up because they didn't have any specific area of expertise. There was no job listed that they felt comfortable volunteering for.

Because of this, we've set up a "General" category. If you don't have any specific area of expertise, but still want to volunteer and help out wherever you feel you can, try filling out the survey again and this time select the "General" category. Things are starting to move fast and we could sure use your help. The link to the survey is below.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/J9RNLPH

We even have a position for something called the swarm. We'll post action items that need you to email an exchange or respond to forum threads or news articles to defend Peercoin/Primecoin. All you need for this is an understanding of how the coin works so that you can promote or defend it.

arnuschky

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 502

Quote from: Sentinelrv on October 24, 2013, 03:39:28 PM

Quote from: arnuschky on October 22, 2013, 04:15:57 AM

Is there a transcript of the first interview somewhere?

Yes, there is a transcript at the following link on the forum, but you'll need to register first in order to see it...

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=617.0

These interviews are mainly used for us to extract information from Sunny King so we can fill in the wiki.

Thanks, I'll wait for the full transcript then.

Sentinelrv

sr. member

Activity: 650

Merit: 318

Also, the 2nd interview should be starting in about 50 minutes on the PrimecoinTalk.org chat box. You need to register to be able to see it. It will NOT take place in IRC.

Sentinelrv

sr. member

Activity: 650

Merit: 318

Quote from: arnuschky on October 22, 2013, 04:15:57 AM

Is there a transcript of the first interview somewhere?

Yes, there is a transcript at the following link on the forum, but you'll need to register first in order to see it...

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=617.0

These interviews are mainly used for us to extract information from Sunny King so we can fill in the wiki.

satriani

member

Activity: 93

Merit: 10

where can i find some statistic how much XPM should i mine per month with Primespersec 1330 ?

second question: i install PrimeCoin from primecoin.org and then copy highperformance Prime to Program files/primecoin. did i do everything ok ?

xyzzy099

legendary

Activity: 1066

Merit: 1098

Quote from: satriani on October 24, 2013, 09:27:41 AM

Quote from: muto on October 24, 2013, 07:38:06 AM

You could limit the numbers of cores used to mine, but not the percent of CPU.

If you have a Quadcore, you can use 2 cores which is 50%.

setgenerate true 2

i have 8th .
setgenerate true=2 or
setgenerate=2
doesnt work

still have 100% usage

If you are doing it from your .conf file, use "gen=1" and "genproclimit=2".

If you are doing it from the debug window of the client, use "setgenerate true 2".

Topic: [XPM] [ANN] Primecoin Release - First Scientific Computing Cryptocurrency - page 37. (Read 688812 times)