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Topic: Yifu now working with "famed banking family" to help government track addresses (Read 11862 times)

legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
We're not going to be able to prevent well funded business people from attempting to promote horrific architectures against the long term interest of Bitcoin and the public
... if we could, the same stupidity would have been prevented in the wider world and there would be less need for Bitcoin.

It's hard to count the number of times newbies have made proposals which would have centralized Bitcoin completely in the name of some fool result or another. Powerful businesses interests are now reliving the same history of bad ideas, but this time the bad ideas will be funded and they don't care if luminaries tell them that they're horrible ideas, they don't necessarily care about any of the principles that make Bitcoin a worthwhile contribution to the world.

It's not, of course, a question or "anonymity": thats silly. If you have "good" and "bad" coins, that destroys fungibility, rapidly everyone must screen coins they accept or risk being left holding the bag. Fungiblity is an essential property of a money like good and without it the money cannot remove transactional friction.  Privacy is also essential for fair markets: Without privacy your counter-parties and competition can see into your finances— get a raise and get a rent hike, and as long as there are power imbalances between people privacy is essential for human dignity.

To stop this nonsense we have to make it impractical to pull off by changing the default behavior in the Bitcoin ecosystem:
We consider the lack of a central authority to be an essential virtue, which means that we can't be protected by one either. We must protect ourselves. This means things like avoiding address reuse, avoiding centralized infrastructure, adopting— and funding!— privacy enhancing technology.

Miners can play a role in this as Bitcoin users, but also by supporting mining pools and methods that promote privacy.  They want to force people to use identified addresses so they can blacklist?  What happens when miners start deprioritizing transactions that use addresses that have been previously seen?


But what if some people really, really want to make everyone else also believe their preferred horrific architecture of the month is truly Bitcoin, even though they can't explain why?
newbie
Activity: 5
Merit: 0
Wow, what an asshole.

Of course, I had already figured that out when I received my Avalon miner 2 months late and noticed it still had the settings for the pools that Yifu was using to mine with it while it was "delayed".

What a sleazy business. I think a lot of people will never buy from Avalon or him again. He's lost a lot of respect in the Bitcoin community and I don't see how anyone will go for his crazy ideas.

In the meantime, we should start using zero coin.

My thoughts exactly. I feel like he stole money from my children.
full member
Activity: 281
Merit: 100
Bounty for a Bill Gates style pie to the face?
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
Wow, what an asshole.

Of course, I had already figured that out when I received my Avalon miner 2 months late and noticed it still had the settings for the pools that Yifu was using to mine with it while it was "delayed".

What a sleazy business. I think a lot of people will never buy from Avalon or him again. He's lost a lot of respect in the Bitcoin community and I don't see how anyone will go for his crazy ideas.

In the meantime, we should start using zero coin.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
why not depriortize transactions which reuse addresses?

You want the fastest confirmations? Transact in a way which is not compatible with white/black listing.

And its already a reality: Eligius (15% network hashpower) is now experimentally limiting reuse to once per block.

I'm assuming Luke is using a hand-made mining client, but if not, how can we all institute these sorts of changes to mining nodes? I would add de-prioritising of re-used addressed to my p2pool node in an instant if it were just a few config parameters. If not, could LukeJr release or merge his mining client tweak?
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 500
Yifu you are such a douchebag for doing this its almost inconceivable

How do we let such people come to such a level of influence in the Bitcoin world? We can sadly only blame ourselves...
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
Blacklist the greenlist. I cannot repeat this enough. Do not accept money from them, or send money to them. Do not process their transactions if you mine directly.
How about more meta than that:  Whitelisting schemes require you to constantly use whitelisted addresses.  Blacklisting schemes are more powerful when the blacklisted parties use constant addresses.

So there is a behavioral difference in transactions which are compatible with a white/black listing broken fungiblity universe: They constantly reuse addresses.  Reuse is already a long term known-bad for privacy thing— so why not depriortize transactions which reuse addresses?

You want the fastest confirmations? Transact in a way which is not compatible with white/black listing.

And its already a reality: Eligius (15% network hashpower) is now experimentally limiting reuse to once per block.
legendary
Activity: 1764
Merit: 1756
Verified Bernie Bro - Feel The Bern!
Y I F U already fucked a good percentage of the mining community, he might as well fuck everyone now too I guess...  JFC what a stupid idea.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
I can think of reasons against if you don't want to discuss it.

People can petition miners (or bribe them) to blacklist someone they plain dislike. It becomes a political tool, basically, which makes it pretty powerful. However, I would argue that using transaction exclusion blacklisting against this proposed transcation acceptance whitelist is the lesser of the two evils; more people will lose out more if the CoinValidation scheme is allowed to operate as it is intended.

Anyone else interested in open debate?
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
I don't know how to put it any more simply: A black-list is bad; no matter the intention.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
You have been repeating this all day. Please stop and think about it.


It's the only actual way to stop it. If you know a reason why it wouldn't work, then share it.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
You have been repeating this all day. Please stop and think about it.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Deprioritizing transactions attached to "seen" addresses is easy to work-around though: simply don't re-use addresses.

With rainbow lists, moving the coins does not remove taint. That means that somebody accepting coins has to worry about if they are on a competing list or not. This makes the coins harder to trade, and hurts Bitcoin's value.

Yep. But we need to discourage people from registering clean addresses to begin with, by making any inputs from clean addresses unspendable. Clean becomes dirty.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
Deprioritizing transactions attached to "seen" addresses is easy to work-around though: simply don't re-use addresses.

With rainbow lists, moving the coins does not remove taint. That means that somebody accepting coins has to worry about if they are on a competing list or not. This makes the coins harder to trade, and hurts Bitcoin's value.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
A black-list Black-list still hurts fungibility, which will destroy the currency. A black list may do more damage than a successful 51% attack.

Not if miners value their security, privacy and fungibility too. The idea is to discourage people from using "green" or "white" lists, as they won't be able to spend the money from their supposedly clean address. Make clean dirty.

Miners can play a role in this as Bitcoin users, but also by supporting mining pools and methods that promote privacy.  They want to force people to use identified addresses so they can blacklist?  What happens when miners start deprioritizing transactions that use addresses that have been previously seen?

I like this idea. Would require a lot of user education so they can understand why their transactions are not confirming. Would make asking for donations harder, but maybe that is a good thing.



Well, this is just a form of psuedo-blacklisting; making it difficult for the green/white addresses that get used to process their transactions, instead of outright impossible.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1001
Let the chips fall where they may.
A black-list Black-list still hurts fungibility, which will destroy the currency. A black list may do more damage than a successful 51% attack.

Miners can play a role in this as Bitcoin users, but also by supporting mining pools and methods that promote privacy.  They want to force people to use identified addresses so they can blacklist?  What happens when miners start deprioritizing transactions that use addresses that have been previously seen?

I like this idea. Would require a lot of user education so they can understand why their transactions are not confirming. Would make asking for donations harder, but maybe that is a good thing.

Edit: "Why is funding my brain-wallet taking so long?"
"Because your passphrase is not as unique as you think it is."
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 501
in defi we trust
Too bad, soon we will need large scale money laundering in BTC too.  Sad

Blacklist the greenlist. I cannot repeat this enough. Do not accept money from them, or send money to them. Do not process their transactions if you mine directly.

Actually in this way , aren't you doing the thing they shouldn't have done and the thing you are against them doing ? Cheesy

legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Too bad, soon we will need large scale money laundering in BTC too.  Sad

Blacklist the greenlist. I cannot repeat this enough. Do not accept money from them, or send money to them. Do not process their transactions if you mine directly.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
Too bad, soon we will need large scale money laundering in BTC too.  Sad
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
Blacklist all wallets/coins from Avalon / Avalon team?    Grin

I considered that, but it's difficult to prove the owners, you can only make an informed guess. Also, it makes it too personal, much as the Avalon Project would deserve to be blocked from spending their Bitcoin.

Blacklisting the greenlist works better. We can prove these people are trying to destroy the principles of security1, fungibility and privacy for all Bitcoin users, sigining up and using this "service" is all the proof needed. And we also have no idea as to their real identities, we just have a list of sanitised public keys. We must organise to prevent transactions either from or to these green addresses from being processed by miners. They want to create a plague that infects all non users of their system, we can take their list and use it against them. Instead, they will be the sufferers.

1This is a genuine concern. The more frequently an address is used, the easier it is for an attacker to compute valid signatures to sign transactions made from that address (knowing the private key is not required). This is one of the reasons it is discouraged to re-use addresses. The more valid signatures in the blockchain that exist made from a single address, the more information the attacker has to work with.
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