Your bets for 2014 - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

notme

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Quote from: lucif on January 09, 2013, 03:33:33 AM

Hey, I am talking exactly about disk read. Not about CPU or GPU. Such amount of transactions will cause heavy disk key lookups. Read before write.

Dude, with the latest leveldb ultraprune builds I can sync the complete chain, verify the transactions and block hashes for all blocks, and verify the signatures for all the blocks after the last checkpoint in under 4 hours with mostly idle disk and less than one core of cpu. It's bottlenecking at the network code (not network speed, just the block download code needs work that is underway or will begin soon).

So how is disk a problem again?

lucif

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Clown prophet

Hey, I am talking exactly about disk read. Not about CPU or GPU. Such amount of transactions will cause heavy disk key lookups. Read before write.

Nagato

full member

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Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Open your fucking eyes. we all go to bottleneck apocalypse. Didn't you mind that vanilla client already makes your computer unusable during sync process? Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

You have no idea what you are talking about. 10k transactions per block is peanuts for even a low end CPU to handle. That is less workload than computing a single frame of any modern PC Video Game. The biggest bottleneck now is the disk read to lookup transactions which is resolved in v0.8 by only storing the unspent output transactions in RAM which is ALL YOU NEED to verify incoming blocks/new transactions. The unspent output set would have to grow by atleast a factor of 30x before storing it in RAM(4GB) becomes an issue. Even if it does, you have on average, 10 mins to process it, something your mobile phone CPU could easily do.

Lets bring it up to 10k/s and assume that the max block size was increased to handle such loads and network bandwidth is not an issue. We could store the unspent output data set in your consumer grade GPU and process them all in realtime.

In short, processing power/harddisk are cheap and plentiful even on low end PCs TODAY.
Memory/Network bandwidth is relatively expensive especially in some parts of the world.

The whole point of having every node process everything is Bitcoin's core philosophy of being trustless.
You dont have to rely on anyone else to verify the validity of any transaction.

notme

legendary

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Quote from: waspoza on January 06, 2013, 08:12:57 PM

Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 08:09:18 PM

Quote from: gimme_bottles on January 06, 2013, 07:59:41 PM

of course that won't make bitcoin unusable, even if you have to verify 1000 blocks. but if we want to make bitcoin more popular we also have to focus on usability. and i don't think many peolpe would be happy with a payment solution that takes 20min to load before you can use it.

i don't want to make bitcoin sound bad, i love the idea as much as most here do, i just want to point out that there is a lot of work to be done, especially on technical details of the software

I can agree with that. But there was someone in this thread barking that "your computer will just die" Roll Eyes

He's just spreading FUD to make profit on his short position.

Too bad for him... even that won't talk the market down right now.

mem

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Herp Derp PTY LTD

Quote from: Chalkbot on January 03, 2013, 10:13:11 PM

I think Bitcoin will be stable and in the low $17.xx range by the end of 2013.

thats inline with the 33% growth, its also what Im expecting.

waspoza

hero member

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Firstbits: 1waspoza

Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 08:09:18 PM

Quote from: gimme_bottles on January 06, 2013, 07:59:41 PM

of course that won't make bitcoin unusable, even if you have to verify 1000 blocks. but if we want to make bitcoin more popular we also have to focus on usability. and i don't think many peolpe would be happy with a payment solution that takes 20min to load before you can use it.

i don't want to make bitcoin sound bad, i love the idea as much as most here do, i just want to point out that there is a lot of work to be done, especially on technical details of the software

I can agree with that. But there was someone in this thread barking that "your computer will just die" Roll Eyes

He's just spreading FUD to make profit on his short position.

grondilu

legendary

Activity: 1288

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Quote from: gimme_bottles on January 06, 2013, 07:59:41 PM

of course that won't make bitcoin unusable, even if you have to verify 1000 blocks. but if we want to make bitcoin more popular we also have to focus on usability. and i don't think many peolpe would be happy with a payment solution that takes 20min to load before you can use it.

i don't want to make bitcoin sound bad, i love the idea as much as most here do, i just want to point out that there is a lot of work to be done, especially on technical details of the software

I can agree with that. But there was someone in this thread barking that "your computer will just die" Roll Eyes

gimme_bottles

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Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 07:53:56 PM

Quote from: gimme_bottles on January 06, 2013, 07:50:24 PM

Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 07:43:28 PM

Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

All is fine as long if your PC can verify those 10k transactions in less than 10 minutes.

From data on bloc 215475, I can read that a transaction is about 528 bytes long. So 10k transactions will be about 5.28MB of data. In ten minutes, that's an average of 8 kB per second. It might require improvement of existing software, but really it does not seem so difficult. Especially considering that consumer electronics keeps improving with time.

yea, but what if average joe uses his client only once a week, he will then have to verify ca. 1000 blocks, what will take quite a lot of time

Well, if bitcoin becomes so popular that it generates 10k transaction per minute, then I guess most users will make bitcoin transactions more often than once a week. I mean, supposing that bitcoin meets scale difficulties and yet that users use it very sporadically is a bit contradictory, isn't it?

my example of once a week was maybe a bit extreme. but just take a look at average banking use today. i don't know many peolpe who use online banking/paypal/etc more often than 2 or 3 times a week.

of course that won't make bitcoin unusable, even if you have to verify 1000 blocks. but if we want to make bitcoin more popular we also have to focus on usability. and i don't think many peolpe would be happy with a payment solution that takes 20min to load before you can use it.

i don't want to make bitcoin sound bad, i love the idea as much as most here do, i just want to point out that there is a lot of work to be done, especially on technical details of the software

grondilu

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Activity: 1288

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Quote from: gimme_bottles on January 06, 2013, 07:50:24 PM

Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 07:43:28 PM

Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

All is fine as long if your PC can verify those 10k transactions in less than 10 minutes.

From data on bloc 215475, I can read that a transaction is about 528 bytes long. So 10k transactions will be about 5.28MB of data. In ten minutes, that's an average of 8 kB per second. It might require improvement of existing software, but really it does not seem so difficult. Especially considering that consumer electronics keeps improving with time.

yea, but what if average joe uses his client only once a week, he will then have to verify ca. 1000 blocks, what will take quite a lot of time

Well, if bitcoin becomes so popular that it generates 10k transaction per minute, then I guess most users will make bitcoin transactions more often than once a week. I mean, supposing that bitcoin meets scale difficulties and yet that users use it very sporadically is a bit contradictory, isn't it? (it's an interesting question, though...)

gimme_bottles

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Quote from: grondilu on January 06, 2013, 07:43:28 PM

Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

All is fine as long if your PC can verify those 10k transactions in less than 10 minutes.

From data on bloc 215475, I can read that a transaction is about 528 bytes long. So 10k transactions will be about 5.28MB of data. In ten minutes, that's an average of 8 kB per second. It might require improvement of existing software, but really it does not seem so difficult. Especially considering that consumer electronics keeps improving with time.

yea, but what if average joe uses his client only once a week, he will then have to verify ca. 1000 blocks, what will take quite a lot of time

grondilu

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1076

Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

All is fine as long as your PC can verify those 10k transactions in less than 10 minutes.

From data on bloc 215475, I can read that a transaction is about 528 bytes long. So 10k transactions will be about 5.28MB of data. In ten minutes, that's an average of 8 kB per second. It might require improvement of existing software, but really it does not seem so difficult. Especially considering that consumer electronics keeps improving with time.

lucif

sr. member

Activity: 462

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Clown prophet

Matthew 7:13-14

All other bubble makers - you will be burned in hell. Hehe.

lucif

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Clown prophet

Well, in the whole world I like just one thing - clever people who have ears to hear. They are so rare.

gimme_bottles

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Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:57:58 PM

All we need now is the open gates for two paths:

1. Ability to store database in distributed hash table. This may shift load from HDD and memory to network, as most participants have enough network connection to handle this.

2. Make walletless client and split wallet-related functionality into RPC commands: inject transaction, query for address transactions, etc. This is to run such stuff as Electrum server. So bitcoind will be able to run without wallet as just passive network node, which just stores full chain, doing transaction relay. this one can be run on powerful servers and accept connection for chainless clients.

If people support this i can make a BIP. But I see, nobody gives a fuck. Allright. Lets just trade and go to tha moooo

+1

too many folks here (speculators) see bitcoin as a thing that is just there and works, but forget that is is still in heavy development and far from a state where you could call it a "finished project"

lucif

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Clown prophet

All we need now is the open gates for two paths:

1. Ability to store database in distributed hash table. This may shift load from HDD and memory to network, as most participants have enough network connection to handle this.

2. Make walletless client and split wallet-related functionality into RPC commands: inject transaction, query for address transactions, etc. This is to run such stuff as Electrum server. So bitcoind will be able to run without wallet as just passive network node, which just stores full chain, doing transaction relay. this one can be run on powerful servers and accept connection for chainless clients.

If people support this i can make a BIP. But I see, nobody gives a fuck. Allright. Lets just trade and go to tha moooo

lucif

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Clown prophet

Regular user will not run bitcoin client 24/7

It will run it while he needs accept ot send coins. The time between those events may span into days or even weeks. And what? He will wait until his PC is stuck for hours in sync to process transaction?

Well, I'm tired to explain this shit.

gimme_bottles

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Activity: 316

Merit: 250

Quote from: lucif on January 06, 2013, 06:39:59 PM

Open your fucking eyes. we all go to bottleneck apocalypse. Didn't you mind that vanilla client already makes your computer unusable during sync process? Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

although lots of you don't want to hear it, i am also very concerned and can confirm lucif's view on the database problems. i think it has top priority for devs to focus on that so we don't have only a couple of servers who own the whole chain in a few years, because that scenario would be worst case for bitcoin, since we want a decentraliced network to prevent abuse/fraud.

lucif

sr. member

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Clown prophet

Quote from: Crypt_Current on January 06, 2013, 06:30:13 PM

I don't understand -- what's the major difference between Bitcoin and torrents? Torrents are distributed, and seem to work just fine...

Torrents distributes load all over all nodes. In Bitcoin, each client carries full network load. This load is database specific. Network consists of thousands of nodes and each one verifies and stores incoming transactions and blocks. Each node repeat the same job of another one.

Verification process require multiple lookups in potentially huge database. I don't think regular client can handle this type of load in not far future.

I am tired to repeat this again and again. You all just stupid and full of stereotypes community slugged into your mind.

Open your fucking eyes. we all go to bottleneck apocalypse. Didn't you mind that vanilla client already makes your computer unusable during sync process? Imagine now that Bitcoin has 10k transactions per block instead of 200. Your PCs will just die.

Crypt_Current

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Shame on everything; regret nothing.

Quote from: myself on January 06, 2013, 03:42:54 PM

the only way for bitcoin to scale up and serve to millions of user is to have dozens of "paypal" services and transaction using blockchain to be just occasional

Bitcoin banks could help.

I don't understand -- what's the major difference between Bitcoin and torrents? Torrents are distributed, and seem to work just fine...

myself

legendary

Activity: 938

Merit: 1000

chaos is fun...…damental :)

the only way for bitcoin to scale up and serve to millions of user is to have dozens of "paypal" services and transaction using blockchain to be just occasional

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