Topic: Merit source observations - page 6. (Read 3998 times)

It's fine if they want to see people have to go through some hoops to get merit, but it's a bit scary if most people follow this trend. It's hard to come up with a good idea for a topic because actually most of the ideas have been discussed previously by many other users. So this is the real reason why newbie or low ranking users try to get other ideas but unfortunately some of those initiatives can be judged as merit fishing.

It might be good to be a little stingy with high ranking members who could logically do better on this forum based on their contributions and the quality of their posts. The merit system has to be sharp in two directions, it doesn't have to be sharper for high rank while we have to be a bit blunt to low rank ^{[that's really unfair, IMO].} But at the end of the day, the merit system is not moderated and each source has their own way of going about how they spend their monthly sMerit supply. I'm not against it, but I want to share my opinion.

Actually I also had an unpleasant experience about how a newbie sent me a PM and asked me to help him rank up. I really don't think it's wrong because on the positive side I can still advise him to learn useful things and improve the quality of his posts. But if they directly ask me to send merit, that's a problem even though I'm not a merit source.

I also have a help thread on the local board, so I thought it would help local users too although I'm not really a merit source. You may be eligible to apply there especially if you have 10 local Indonesian posts to review, so don't be shy to do so if you want.

[HELP]Bantuan untuk menaikkan Rank (Newbie s.d Hero) V.2 [UPDATE]

I think that's why theymos didn't publicly introduce merit sources even though many of us now know who is on the 111 sources list. Few merit source and most people feel uncomfortable receiving pm from users especially if they ask for merit, it is considered begging which is very unwelcome. But I'm sure there are some merit sources willing to help in different ways regardless of whether it's by making a request or reporting some post links in the threads they provide (Ratimov and LoyceV do this). These are all attitudes that are expected to help users gain merit and rankings and as far as the merit system goes, we've seen a lot of users get their help in a decent way.

In fact, it all started when I started a topic for newbie members without merit in the Beginners & Help section of the forum, and offered them to report their quality posts and get the first merit.
Unfortunately, most of the reported posts were of poor quality and I could not give them merit.
After that I started getting unwanted private messages in my inbox from newbie members begging me to give them merits.
Then I just gave up and closed the topic.
Everything had simply gone too far.

You're right, I experienced it even though I actually got full member rank when the merit system was introduced. What I understand is that everyone has their own standard of spending the sMerit they have each month, and since each user has different abilities and skills when posting then the amount of merits they will get should vary depending on the quality. This implies that the merit system is working as it should and each user doesn't have to spend years climbing up the rankings if they are really quality posters.

Of course that a user like me would have a harder time earning more merit because I probably haven't met many of the standards most merit sources expect. I'm waiting and I'm trying, but I can't get everyone interested in submitting merits because maybe the quality of my posts isn't what they expected. I'm just sure that sooner or later I too can become a Sr member, but I don't think I have to complain about why I had to wait so long to get one.

I hear what you're saying, but I'd suggest Ratimov should feel free to do whatever he likes--there are a lot of merit sources, and each of them is different with respect to their standards, how many merits they give out on average, and other variables as well.  Plus, I've noticed that it might be just a wee bit harder for members to rank up than it needs to be.  I've seen some really good posters who've been stuck at Sr. Member/Hero for well over a year, and in cases like that bumping up the number of merits sent per post makes sense.  I would also say that posts that just barely qualify for some merits shouldn't be granted any additional ones, because the award for mediocrity should never be increased.

No, you can't.  I'd say an average member can move up from Jr. Member pretty quickly if they're a decent writer or contribute stuff that's significant, but once a member reaches Full Member rank, it starts taking a much longer time to reach the next rank (assuming their posts aren't prolific and well above average).  Bumping up the number of merits sent per post even by 2 probably wouldn't have much of an effect if a handful of merit sources did it, which they probably won't.

In regards to the random newbies in my mailbox, a few times a year for me too... .. frequently I had run into them in another thread.. and sure it could be annoying, and maybe some peeps calculate that a few times a year is overly burdensome.. I don't welcome it.. and either I ignore, report or maybe once in a while I will review posts, depending on context.. I had a few over the years that just repeated over and over.. and sure that is a bit annoying.. and even a couple of times could end up causing me to just report.. because some levels of begging should just be obviously outside of acceptability..

sometimes there can be some dilemmas participating on a forum, and especially if there is any kinds of attempts to account for the situations of others, yet of course, some members may well not know that there is likely to be a decent amount of skepticism in terms of interacting with members until running across some of their public posts and if they are involved in forum threads that are of mutual interests, then it might even be more difficult to getting to know such members.

Of course, there are some forum members who invite PMs, and personally, I tend to NOT be very excited or receptive to PMs absent some rationale that makes sense.. and even then, frequently there might not be a need for the PM interactions, from my point of view...

oh by the way, don't get me wrong.. some things might be too personal or potentially explosive to get into publicly.. and even sometimes, there might be some desire not to back off a position that was taken in public, but maybe to explain the position to the member via private message.. so yeah.. sometimes there are decently good reasons to get into private messages, so even though I am not necessarily going to list what I would consider acceptable, some of us do have a sufficient level of common sense regarding the boundaries, and there might even be some abilities to go a wee bit beyond boundaries without really becoming annoying or "burdensome"..  on reflection.. some of the interactions via PM as compared to public interactions can be a wee bit funny, strange and/or ironic over the years.. and might even inform a bit about another member but not necessarily be repeated in public (except maybe just in the abstract like I am attempting to do here)..  (whether good, bad, ugly, burdensome or otherwise.. hahahahaha)...


For sure, I don't always agree with Ratimov..  and for sure, there is value to differing perspectives and there are also value to being able to figure out some kind of a pace that is workable.. and gosh, it may well be difficult to understand how some aspects of the forum might start to feel too toxic and/or intolerable.. but for me war is one thing.. so getting involved in politics can be problematic.. and surely my issues with shitcoins could cause me to not want to participate.. .oh and god damned meta issues can sometimes be irritating.. even though sometimes any of us could get sucked into them.. . so for me, some of my preferences to focus on bitcoin has helped some of my sanity and ability to sustain posting and participating in the forum in ways that I feel to be beneficial for my own knowledge and psychology. ... but yeah, if the participation becomes too burdensome, then I can surely relate to that...

Otherwise, I agree with you fillippone that the loss of a previously proactive and thoughtful merit source (even if we might not agree with everything) does seem to be a loss for the forum.. and of course, theymos  does not seem to assign too many new merit source members.. and there are likely a decent number of merit source members.. maybe double the number of merit source members?  

I feel kind of privileged to have a decent amount of time that I can spend on forum activities, yet I can surely understand how some members could either become burned out or even begin to consider the giving out of merits to be a wee bit too burdensome and not fitting in their own ways that they would prefer to spend their time.  Sometimes it can be difficult to read some posts and to figure out if they are "merit worthy" from our own perspective (no I am not even suggesting that there is necessarily an objective standard exactly.. even though there may well be some overlapping of ideas in regards to what is "merit worthy"..). and several of us know that sometimes we might even perceive our own systems for sending out smerits to be inadequate or to be making mistakes or maybe even sucking us into parts of the forum (or threads or even reading some posts more than once to figure out if we want to send it an smerit) that are not pleasurable for us on a personal preference basis.. and even some members may well not like the way that we send out smerits.. and even find various angles of our personality to be not very likable.. and I don't even claim to like myself sometimes.. except during the times that I do.. -that's meant to be kind of a joke.. hahahaha..

Any of us can be irritating and irritable (whether a merit source or not).. and sure there are some members who are always likable too.. and I am not even sure if that is a good thing.. .. so in that sense, there seems to be some value in mixing up the types of merit source members.. or if there is a system and if there might be burn out and if there might be needs to remove some merit sources (maybe even yours truly) if it seems that they might have left the reservation.. if there is such a thing as being on the reservation within the meaning of the expression?.. .I know that there is some attempts at creating a kind of sustainable system here.. kind of like open source.. and decentralized.. but then each of us are humans (at least in theory).. so then in that regard, we have our various central points of failure in a variety of possible ways.. not only meat or mental-wagon related. even though those two are likely the bigger of the categories.. .


I must be living in fantasyland.

I thought that most of the smerits were distributed on the WO thread.  One thread hogging all (most) of the smerit distribution....

Surely, it is good for any merit source to go beyond their usual stomping grounds, but sometimes merit sources do not want to go outside of their usual areas.. and I can see why those members might start to feel somewhat stuck.. .. So what is the solution?  I would imagine that theymos has some ideas about threshold considerations. and maybe some ideas about source merit adjustments that could be made.. even though the last time that he made an adjustment about a year ago (and did it not take more than 1.5 years between that adjustment and the previous adjustment?) seemed to have just been a kind of blanket increase for a lot of the merit source members, even though I cannot either remember details or even remember if I ever knew many of the details (even at that time) regarding how that last adjustment played out.


Actually it is true that some members will get better in their post quality with the passage of time, and surely some members might well be trying to earn merits, and I can see why you may well consider the term "fishing for merit" to be derogatory, and maybe even presuming way more bad intentions upon the newbie (or the lower ranking member) than such member deserves.  So yeah, sometimes merit sources may well expect members to have to jump through way too many hoops  before sending any smerits.

It seems to be good that there are a variety of standards that merit source members have in terms of quality of posts that they expect; however, it does seem to be the case that merit source members will end up getting eliminated and/or reduced if their smerit sending policy ends up resulting in not using their 30-day supply on a regular basis.. absent some reasonable explanation for such..

Surely the infrequencies of global adjustments to the smerit system including quantity of merit source members and quantity of smerits within the hands of merit source members could cause some reasonable inference speculation that theymos practices a decent amount of hands off in the whole matter.. even though I would imagine that he has some decent tools to look into some of the specifics to the extent that might be needed.. and maybe some kinds of adjustments that might be needed might not really be in the bailiwick of other members to report either, because sometimes it can be difficult for other members to recognize some smerit spending/sending patterns that might exist.. and whether theymos might consider those smerit sending patterns to be problematic in terms of how smerits might be sent out and whether some members might be overly stingy or overly generous.... and from my own speculation on the matter, absent perhaps some reports of abuse (if they can be identified) it seems that theymos may well end up acting more in response to evidence of overly stingy rather than evidence of overly generous.

It still requires to somewhat prove you're a quality writer, with or without merit inflation. You can't just reach 100, 250 or 500 merits, whether we have 111 or a thousand merit sources. That's why most bounty hunters remain with less than 100.

The recent merit inflation did more good with the entrance of new, merit-worthy users than bad for these few merit whores. 

Mate, I understand what you're trying to say, but actually I don't expect your suggestion to be the basis for lowering the percentage of sMerit distributed monthly to deserving users. I mean don't make people wait any longer to rank up if they have a good initiative to improve the quality of their posts. But of course the quality will determine the amount of merit they will get, it should be fair to see.

I don't understand why some of us think that the good initiative of low ranking users to get merit on their posts is a reason to call it merit-fishing initiative. I don't know what the problem is, it's a viewpoint that is now starting to be heard more often when there are some low-ranking users trying to rank up and get merit in their posts. Good initiative should be rewarded rather than them forever being spammers, but it should be worth the effort. I would not say that they are merit-fishing because even if it is true, then we are only encouraging them to improve themselves and post quality.

Misunderstood perhaps.

I meant good posters deserve to rank up. Fast or slow, it depends on their contributions but if they don't actually make excellent contents, merit they received should be equal to their contribution quality.

It is like you make a charity to build up your reputation but if you shows it publicly, your reputation will increase faster but it does not actually make your reputation is better than others who do charity silently. In short term, make noise will increase it a bit but in long term, it is the same.

You never can verify what they actually do from their initiative announcement but you can verify their post quality.

It is part of the merit system issue. theymos watches it carefully and rarely to make significant changes in merit source number and merit source allocation. Over inflation of merit source and merit source allocation can create a new generation of pseudo-quality members who will turn to likely spammers after ranking up.

This is the same as saying "It's not fair to rise the price of coffee, because it costed less a year ago" or "It's not fair to pay 100,000 sats for a product, because some people four years ago paid 0.01 BTC for it". In both cases, it's not the merchant's fault; it's just the nature of inflation/deflation.

Merit sources are more than they were few years ago. sMerits have increased. It's natural, therefore, to reward more generously.

Isn't it better that people nowadays can rank up easier than years ago? From my understanding, point of merit system is to prevent shitposters and spammer from ranking up and not to make it a struggle for decent members to rank up like it was at the beginning (at least that's what you said).

Please don't increase merit per post according to their same quality.

It is not fair for people years ago have to struggle to rank up and nowadays simply posting some merit-fishing initiatives and receive a lot of merit. I don't call them as shit posters, their post quality is good enough but let's keep their rank-up as natural as it should be. Don't distort your rules of meriting only because you feel you must keep your source-merit bag as emptiest as possible.

Very sad to know.
I did noticed, doing my usual [META] analysis for the Italian board, that the Russian board had a few problems in terms of post and merits in the last months.
I guessed it has to do with the ongoing situation, and also thought the interaction between Russian speaking users, if I may, could become more difficult.

Sorry to hear the tone in the community caused you to leave.
I think it is a net loss for the forum.

There's one more MS at least I know who has been removed from MS list as per the request of the MS. MS requested theymos to remove him and theymos did. I was talking with him few weeks back, and incidentally, he shared that with me.

Well, this is weird.
I rarely get this kind of messages.
Either or I am not particularly supportive of newbie, so they don’t even bother trying to message me, or on the contrary i always help voluntarily, so they don’t even bother to message me.
Who knows!!

I'm sorry about that, Ratimov is really a very prominent member of this forum and has helped many members in the past.
I guess it has become a burden for him to receive many requests for help with merits, which is understandable.
I used to get spam messages in my inbox from unknown new members begging me for merits and sometimes it really becomes a burden.
Ratimov is indeed a deserving member of this forum and should be thanked for everything he has done.
Filippone, 10 k merits, congratulation, a great achievement 

Not much is known about what happened to him ^{[only he knows better about this than we do].} I just know that he hasn't spent much of his sMerit in the last few months but today 1 big transaction was issued along with the confirmed that he is no longer the merit source on the link referred by @filippone. Really, I also think that he is an asset on this forum whether one likes him or not, and to be honest there are probably a lot of users who really miss his contributions right now.

To our merit source @filippone, congratulations on reaching your new milestone today. That 10K merit is something special to have.

First, congratulations for your big achievement, with 5 digits! Very impressive fil. I know you long enough and have some personal discussion with you but what you achieved, just insane!

Second, I knew of some drama with merit sources, and some of them revoked to be a source but it happened in 2018 or 2019. What happened with Ratimov? I actually did not know about it.

Maybe I barely visit Reputation board so I missed something there. Anyway, honestly and neutrally said, Ratimov is another great asset of the forum just like you.

Weird. Because technically he is still merit source, I still see him in the MS list with a big merit allocation. But indeed, he doesn't give merits anymore.
He does what he wants after all.