Topic: The Blocksize War is still ongoing. - page 2. (Read 720 times)

Me:  Wants from people to have the freedom to choose the network that is the best for them.  
You:  Wants from people to... do it in your way otherwise they are spammers and extremely oppressive?  

Got it!  

if you think the only option is blind follow core or create an altcoin
then you are definitely on the centralised bitcoin cult side, you want the tyranny control of core human politics AKA a government

you have failed understanding the point of bitcoin
you have failed understanding consensus purpose
you have failed understanding the point of decentralisation
you have failed many things

but thanks for admitting you are one of those idiots..
go ahead and remain ignorant. seems its too late for you.

all thats left for you now, is to replace yourself at the keyboard, for a bot that just recites/repeats doomads cult messages
...

the only option is not "do nothing onchain to benefit bitcoiners thats different of core politics or create another network and leave bitcoin".. thats is just stupidity of a controlling group of idiots narrative

the only option is not "do nothing onchain to benefit bitcoiners or LEAP to nonsense amounts of absurdity numbers no rational person takes serious"
..
i have listed multiple things that can achieve a growth of transaction counts without needing to(their other narrative to avoid any benefit) LEAP to nonsense numbers
i do laugh that doomad and his cult think that code cannot control change via formulae or measurement... um here s highlight. formulaes and measurements to effect change is exactly what code does
to think bitcoin can only operate via core devs politics decisions is the biggest failure doomad and his cult keeps reciting
take the 'network hashrate difficulty' for instance. it does not need core dev politics involvement every fortnight

---

responding to below

no bitcoin consensus should be where those using the bitcoin network dont just have blindly slave follow core politics or leave
but instead not have a central core government..
you wanting a core government jsut makes bitcoin a failed FIAT currency.
bitocin was created to not be government controlled by a class of hierarchy people in authority..

bitcoin was invented where different node brands on the bitcoin network should and could propose upgrades for the bitcoin network without needing to kiss the core monarchy ring. where by without core REKT campaigns the best code to benefit bitcoiners then (again emphasising without the REKT campaigns from core cultists) gets to activate an upgrade that benefits bitcoiners on the bitcoin network

..
i do gotta laugh when those idiots think the only option is
"follow core devs as governments who want to only add features to bitcoin that benefit leaving bitcoin for other networks(sub or alt)"
scaling bitcoin is not about leaving bitcoin for other networks, but is funny to see the idiots try to push that agenda

OK.  So, you DON'T know how to SCALE.  You only know how to complain about the current state.  You want blocksize increase but you are not willing to move to an alternative network (like Bitcoin Cash).  You need to grow up and realize that in these networks, people do not fair go along with your word.  You either accept the compromises of the current network or you use another network.  It's a fantastic deal considering that before that you could not have the second option. 

conclusion
doomads cult admits core authority where users have no say or choice over code.. because "backward compatibility" doesnt make choice it just allows things to pass without checking if core uses its softened rules to change things.  where user nodes bypass rejecting things it does not have rules for

the non-mining nodes he speaks of are not user nodes with "backward compatibility" he speaks of the core nodes that are altered by core and their sponsors (NYA economic nodes) to elevate their control.. to allow/reject what THEY do-dont want.. everyone else is just a follower of core code change after the fact of core politics

doomad will use his cult recruits to REKT anyone releasing proposals/code that has not gone through the core moderation policy of technical discussion to even get a proposal to elevate beyond discussion

Not your call.  Block size will only be altered if/when those securing the chain collectively agree to bear that cost.  No formula or measurement will make that decision for them.  The impetus will come from them and not the other way around. 

The scaling debate proved pretty conclusively that people talking about what it "should" be are just making noise.  The only thing that matters is what non-mining nodes will offer to relay and what miners support.  And that will be determined by the code people are choosing to run.

If code doesn't exist to support your view or you aren't actively running that code, you're achieving nothing.  Everything else is just a somewhat worthless opinion.

the cost of running is negligible

if the idiot brigade telling you stories that the cost of a $50 hard drive is too high, listen to them when they then say they prefer no one transacting unless they pay $50 for one transaction.. and listen hard and good at their hypocrisy and tyranny of not wanting people to use bitcoin unless they pay stupid high fee for one transaction but call that one transaction high fee 'acceptable cost', but stupidly say the same amount is too high to protect decades of transactions
if you agree that $50 is ok for 1tx but $50 is not ok for 20 years of millions of tx.. then you need to sort your math out and not just blindly recite silly things

increase based on measurements.. but that of block fill over time.. not dev politics of deciding costs
core DEVS should not pretend to be economists , pretending they care about the price/cost when all history and examples of their economic decisions show  they prefer to miscount things, discount the wrong things, premiumise te wrong things, and do it all to promote another network people should use.

core devs need to get out of governing the network and get out of sponsoring other network migrations.. and instead concentrate on bitcoin features that benefit bitcoiners not their fiat backed sponsors that want to become the middlemen controller of crypto

That's why block size should be increased based on specific measurement (e.g. cost of hardware and cost of running) , rather than choosing arbitrary number (just like what BSV did).

you are stuck in the LEAP to "millions of transactions per second" IDIOCY
as a way to avoid rational discussion of scaling

do you again want to be ignorant to the difference between scaling vs leaping

try not to be a idiot by thinking the only option is 'jump to millions of transactions a second or ignore all other options'
dont be a fool.. try to learn scaling..

we do not need to LEAP to millions of transactions a second
we as a planet do not need a "single world currency where billions of people do their few transactions a day on one currency"
do not use the naive idiotic "one world currency/new world order dystopia agenda" game as a reason to not scale bitcoin

by you leaping to "millions of transactions a second" need(in idiots mind) the second part of that narrative becomes "but doing so leads to dystopia and centralisation so lets avoid it and do nothing instead"

you need to realise scaling is not about the STUPID leap of the millions per second.. so shut up about it
the only idiots speaking of millions per second is the idiot group that dont want any scaling by any measure so use stupid extremes just to even try to quash anyone talking of any proposals outside cores plan


you(and doomad cult) are the only ones suggesting bitcoin should perform every transaction of all people on one currency..
scaling is not what you speak of and scaling is not what you want it to sound like.. get the hint

heres some math
8 billion people, 4 transactions a day (32bill)
32bill/24/60/60=370,000tx  a second

yep so when you STUPIDLY shout the STUPID narrative of millions a second, you done ZERO math, done no logical thinking, no economics to even know what you are talking about. you are just repeating the same nonsense doomads cult speak, and no wonder he gives you merit fo speaking his nonsense

do you know that in the real world, once people pay like 5 transaction a MONTH
(housing, electric, water, gas, local tax)
they then do maybe 4 tx a month for groceries
they then do most 2 transactions a day for incidentals, random stuff
the world do not need millions of tx per second even if there was a one world currency scenario
reality of economics is about 3 a day per person

so there is no need for your silly speak of "millions of transactions a second"
even 3tx a day * 8 billion people is no where near millions of transactions a second for the whole planet
3*8b=24b
24b/24hours=1billper hour
1bill per hour=16,666,666 a minute
16,666,666per min=277,777 a second.. = FAR BELOW YOUR NAIVE EXTREME NONSENSE

yep even in the cultish dreamscape dystopian extremist cult/centralised adoring world you wish to push as your version how you see "scaling"(i call your silly speak leaping) atleast get your dystopian maths correct of ~270-370tx a second and not the STUPID (not thought about) "million a second" dumb speak of your dystopian dream of one world currency


so stop using dumb narratives you heard else where that scaling needs millions a second
it makes you look dumb and obvious that you have fallen into the idiot brigade cult trap of talking about silly things to avoid talking about actual scaling

---

i just explained in previous post, quoting an even previous post.... and there is even previous posts to that in many topics over the years that go into even more detail..
 if you cant then do the math of transaction count benefit even when explained in dumbed down version, thats your problem

but ill give you a hint
right now most blocks are junk/bloat/spam filled 70%
meaning of the 4k tx of 4mb only ~1200 is considered rational genuine bitcoiner use
bitcoin right now has an average tx size of 1kb(4k tx of 4mb)

so taking the junk intent and spam intent away, changing then cludgy segregation to then allow true txdata utility. and then making tx leaner. can allow 17,700 tx instead of 1.2k tx genuine bitcoinr use, and thats before even changing the block size beyond 4mb

4,000,000 byte/ lean tx of 226byte = upto 17,700tx genuine bitcoiner use

yep before even changing the blocksize,.. just cleaning up the silly stuff can get a upto 14x+ increase of tx per block of genuine bitcoiner use
and then progressively scaling the blocksize can increase that further
oh and there is ways to make transactions of 1in 2out(destination and change) way less than 226bytes so transactions can get even leaner..
oh and there is ways to make transactions of multiple IN multiple OUT to also be under 226bytes so transactions can get even leaner..
(i used used 226 as a demo number not the limit of leanness)

Because the issue that the blocksize war brings isn't something that you can just fix in a single day, people will always disagree on things if they were given the chance, moreso if they have made sound points about their cases. This is the case for the blocksize war. On one hand you have the purists who wanted the blocks to remain at a single megabyte, while they know this means that bitcoin's scalability is in shambles, it also means that they can secure bitcoin and shield it from getting tarnished, with the possibility of even losing bitcoin to hackers, and of course against people who see bitcoin as nothing but a cashcow which they would use for their personal gain.

on the other hand, bitcoin needed this scalability so badly if they wanted to have a shot at breaking it globally. It's bad enough that bitcoin's got a bad wrap at the people, it would be even worse if people are pushed away by the fact that you can't use bitcoin without tanking huge fees and slow wait times that sometimes take days.

I'm all for what makes bitcoin better and accessible to the public really. Even if it means we gotta do some massive bitcoin makeover.

If you knew how to scale blockchain, it would not be another "crapcoin".  You just named me a few tiny details and think as if you solved the scaling problem.  Even if we "uncludge the byte miscount" and punish spammers with your "fee formulas", you still cannot handle millions of transactions per second, on-chain.  I repeat:  Can you tell us how to SCALE?  Or are you just another keyboard warrior?

as for scaling the blocks without needing dev political decisions..
much like how difficulty does not need dev politics to manually code at every interval of their choosing.. , where instead code exists that uses ~2016 blocks as its bases for self adjustment within the node if there are too many or not enough blocks within a fortnight

we could implement code that every [insert milestone*] if over 90% of blocks are over 90% filled then blocksize increases by X %

*milestone possibilities
26250 blocks (6 months)
52500 blocks (1 year)
105000 blocks(2 years)

and no this is not about leaping to huge blocksizes like the itiot brigades pretends it means

---

dont be fooled into the idiot brigade narrative(aka core tyranny control fangirl cult)

their trick is to not get core to test it on a bitcoin testnet to see if it works or broke/bugs/exploits out.. and if pass then implement in bitcoin..
they instead want anyone not core to f**k off and create a crapcoin, and then be ignored simply because its a crapcoin.. whether it works or not. thus ignore it as a option simply because its a crap coin no one uses even if the code doesnt break
they just want anyone with any proposal thats not the core plan to f**k off the network and leave the bitcoin network in cores dev politics hands just following their core roadmap

and no
proposals dont come after code..
its proposal first. then code, then test on a testnet then if work added as a mainnet candidate release
(as per the cores own moderate guidelines of bips)

Yes, that's why I don't get it how testnet is related with blocksize.


Can you tell us how to SCALE at that point?  Since all I am perusing is inconsequential babble.  Tell us how to scale the blockchain on in such a way that the whole world can utilize it without paying a fortune on transaction fees.  And it would be ideal if you could point to a cryptocurrency network that has executed your thoughts.

you been duped into the concept that scaling=leaping
(facepalm)
let me guess you now want to say how you think hard drives are expensive and will kill decentralisation to spend $50 to store terrabytes of data for multiple years of blockdata.. then you will say what you have said in some other topics of how bitcoin needs expensive transactions that are more expensive than one hard drive
lets skip the narrative and just already call it hypocrisy/contradicting yourself..

so lets clarify
FEE's are not needed to compensate halvenings.. SPOT PRICE deflation is what compensates halvenings.. not fee's
fee's are not needed as a main income earner any time soon.. so dont fall into the silly rabbit hole of promoting high fees as a good thing. as it then contradicts your fear of 'hard drive costs' being a cost problem of bitcoin users if you now want to say paying $20-$50(recent fee's on network) should be the norm

if you want to suggest paying $50 per tx is ok but $50 for decades of data storage is bad... then you need to stop listing idiots contradictions and stop listening to idiots telling you to say stupidity and instead realise that fee's being high is more of a annoyance than your PRETEND fears of storage cost

---

and with that said
you also seem to have been fooled into the STUPID narrative that the only way to get more transactions per block is LEAPING to 'visa speeds' or 'millions of transactions'

you really are missing the point of real scaling. there are many ways to improve transactions per block with needing to LEAP.. its called scaling
please learn scaling away from the idiot group that you seem to be leaning into with your current narratives

there are ways to SCALE without LEAPING to huge numbers.. stop thinking the only options is LEAP blocks to huge size or make people LEAP to other networks
scaling is not leaping and  scaling is not other networks (leaping ship)

..
you used to not sound like the cult narrative idiot brigade but i have seen you slowly get fooled into their narratives, promoting their idiotic rhetoric and promotions of a certain sponsored roadmap/subnetwork.. escape the rhetoric before you dig too deep a hole..
..
bitcoin is 15 years old.. and is still only hitting tx targets that satoshi said were possible in 2010
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/charts/n-transactions-per-block
yep still hanging around the same 4k area that satoshi said was possible

yet even before talking about leaping the blocksize
yet even before talking about scaling the blocksize

bitcoin can scale up its transaction count multiple times...
a. uncludge the byte miscount and bad utility of block space(1mb:3mb segregation(bad utility of space)) to actually allow true bitcoin tx data in the full ('weight') block space and not have the cludgy separation (segregation) used for junky metadata, that currently miscounts bytes and ignore byte validity by assuming acceptance without thorough checks by all nodes of what goes in the 3mb area
b. make transactions leaner(yes its possible)
c. introduce fee formula's to punish only the spammers and bloaters to stop spammers/bloaters, while not punishing everyone else whilst letting spammers/bloaters get 'discounts'

average tx size is ~1kb  (4k tx of 4mb)
70% of blockspace is used by bloaters/spammers
meaning making tx leaner. having less spamming and utilising the cludgy 1mb base 3mb witnes to be a unified 4mb space for lean bitcoin value transfer data whereby every byte is purposefully lean to be only related to the tx data and signature proof of moving bitcoin
EG if the current ~4k tx is only 30% genuine bitcoiners. means a block is only genuine bitcoin utilised ~1200tx
so getting rid of spam/junk alone makes a 3.3x better scenario
making tx more lean causes more improvement. then decluging the miscount segregation. improves things further
which can turn a 4mb blockspace to be able to handle ~17,700 lean (226byte tx) of genuine bitcoiner utility, up from ~1200tx which is upto a 14x improvement without even touching "blocksize"

this would cause a increase of tx count for genuine bitcoiners by multiples of the current average tx count before even doing block scaling..
and no blockscaling does not mean leaping to 'millions/billions of transactions per block' nonsense idiots want to pretend scaling means just so they can try to get people to avoid even talking about scaling because the idiots want to pretend scaling is leaping

No it doesn't, there no such thing as scaling on blockchain. The world, or even just small country, or even just a single city with a few million people needs a capacity for many millions of transactions per day. It's impossible to effectively process and store such amounts of data on a home computer, you need a specialized server equipment for that. So any solution that tells to just increase blocksize will inevitably turn into a network of one or a few large servers controlled by an entity that could be blocked or physically raided by law enforcement.

I understand that aspect of it, & I actually have some bitcoin testnet coins that I’m aware have no real value.

Have you read the title of the thread? The discussion is around block size, and I know Pooya is an expert so was speaking to the threads main discussion/topic at hand.

Testnet is just a network where coins have no monetary value and its purpose is to test things before deploying them to the mainnet.  It is "actual" as in "real time", but I don't see the relevance of forks or chains here.  What's the catch?

Maybe I should be asking this in the technical discussion board, and was actually thinking of starting a topic just the other day but since it's being discussed here..one thing I've always been confused about is the testnets.  I've been told that a testnet is just like an actual chain in "real-time" being utilized, but then others have told me it's not.  If a testnet was truly the same thing, then these kind of coversations/debates would be over right?  Since you could then just easily test and prove what works/what doesn't.. but, I'm certainly not an expert..

The central question is how to  efficiently process transactions while maintaining  decentralization and security. The notion of "scaling" as gradual, measured growth is a valuable point.  Imagine small, incremental improvements that enhance the network's capacity without jeopardizing its core principles.  Large, sudden leaps could introduce instability.

The concern about transaction costs associated with storing historical data is valid.  Imagine a scenario where the cost of storing decades of transactions becomes prohibitive for some users.  Finding a balance between affordability and data integrity is crucial. The argument that a one-time hard drive purchase is a reasonable expense for long-term storage is interesting.  However, the cost of entry for new users and the potential strain on resource-limited individuals shouldn't be dismissed.

Easier and less expensive. 


Yes, Wallet of Satoshi is a good example.  I have not used it, but I know it is a lightning custodial wallet.  I was more interested in BlueWallet before it closed its custodial service.  Now I prefer low fee altcoins for small transactions.