Topic: ㅤ - page 13. (Read 11875 times)

Regarding your first point about struggles in the economy in the event that bitcoin prices continue to fall.   I am not sure if El Salvador is in a worse position because they are involved in bitcoin because there is also evidence that El Salvador's involvement in bitcoin has brought in revenue too, so the evidence does not necessarily support that their getting involved in bitcoin has caused them to perform economically worse than if they had not gotten involved in bitcoin.  Of course, future BTC price performance could bring some further facts to this issue, yet I would not presume that the ONLY direction of BTC's future price performance is down, especially since BTC's current price performance is at (and even below) the 200-week moving average which are historical lows.  Sure, the BTC price could go lower, but it is not guaranteed to go lower as you seem to be presuming in your comments.

Regarding your second point regarding El Salvador's using bitcoin's transparency to crack down on crimes related to money laundry or taxation.  I doubt that their focus is on those kinds of activities as much as it is upon just promoting the growth of bitcoin.  Of course, both can be done at the same time, but in essence El Salvador has pretty liberal tax laws in regards to bitcoin because it is treated as a currency, so there would not be any extra tax burdens by using bitcoin - so I would suspect that if there are any extra tax issues that are coming up because of bitcoin in El Salvador those would be more fringe issues rather than falling under the main ideas around their various current efforts of just wanting to promote the growth of bitcoin throughout the country.


Do you have feet on the grounds in El Salvador Cryptmuster to be making assessments regarding the "ONLY" things happening in El Salvador around bitcoin?  Where's your data beyond your pure speculative assertion?  how about remittances?  how about certain areas in which there are regular meetups in regards to bitcoin, are those meetups expanding or having any impact on adoption increasing in El Salvador?  And even if the usage is ONLY in regards to touristy areas, then are there more businesses accepting bitcoin, and if so are they completely converting into cash or are they HODLing some bitcoin or are they spending bitcoin in other places in the El Salvador economy or not?  Where's the data?

This is exactly what we see El Salvador buying more bitcoin when he has the opportunity to do so. But in fact, there is no real use of bitcoin in the country, you correctly said that the wallet was downloaded by users only for the sake of receiving a bonus payment, after which interest in it was lost. You say people have to get used to it, but what to get used to? Realistically, El Salvador is turning into a bitcoin-place for tourists, that's the only thing that has happened.

But on the one hand, the volatility of Bitcoin can lead to a buildup of debt that results in countries in Acquisitions, recessions and state revenue chaos, this is proportional to the larger funding of the public money they manage.
I even read some news about El Salvador's economic growth slowing in 2%.

My prediction is that el salvador will experience a much bigger wave of protests from its citizens, so that when the price of bitcoin drops, certain parties will experience serious problems and the state will be blamed, if it is not able to provide a solution.
Possible solutions that they can develop only in the preparation of special funds, through third parties, but still carried out together, so that they can achieve stronger economic growth in the future.

If this power can be built, it can also stop those who want to use bitcoin/crypto in terms of money laundering, taxation and other crimes, because the state can completely control the growth of bitcoin, by not being given too much access.
Please correct if I'm wrong

Not only in El Salvador but that teaches everyone, especially those who are new in crypto. They now realized that the market is really tough and it was had to understand. They oversee the possible scenario and fast adoption, they underestimate the situation and think that their people are ready for this, sadly they are not and they fail. But I think it is not an option to quit, they now need some patience and market workout to help people understand. maybe in this time, they got some support from merchants and partnerships with these business owners.

Yeah that's right maybe they just analyze it wrong for that instance and I'm sure their government do something to counter their past mistake made from their first entry so provably they comeback stronger with proper data analytics on how the market moves.

For sure the bull and bear market condition teach them good lesson on how they can approach for another time around.

El Salvador Bitcoin adoption is way beyond price speculations, because for a country with loads of economic crises to adopt a volatile currency like Bitcoin as a legal tender means the president is well prepared and informed about the actions and behavior of the market, and that is why Bitcoin price has never being a factor to consider when buying the country's Bitcoins and many have misunderstood the whole process and now related the current Bitcoin price to a failure to El Salvador Bitcoin adoption.

Those who are of the school of thought that Bitcoin price determines success are the same forks who are promoting this, what I know is that projects like this are always given long-term goals and since it is a capital project let's give El Salvador some 10 years from now, then a lot of things would have happened that can be used as tools for analysis on the condition of El Salvador bitcoin adoption and its outcomes.

To them all that seems not to believe in the progress with El-Savador's bitcoin adoption, here's another development.


https://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/1560673790962458625?t=XI8lQ5esjsuWbxE9SjBpdg&s=19

Some salient research works are going underneath in El-Savador which are not visible to the public, here the president is taking his time in engaging divers means to ensure a stable run of bitcoin economy within his jurisdiction and he's coming up with plans to engage bitcoin leveraging organizations recovers from the effect of global distress.

Not full believing with bitcoin adoption failed in El Savador because drastically with bitcoin dump have other side not happening what did by El Savador after made bitcoin as legal currency transaction. But little mistake made by El Savador when announcing about bitcoin as legal currency transaction because price have going pump. But at the early announcement about Bitcoin as legal currency, price still not high and after legal bu El Savador bitcoin ever reach all time high above $60,000.

I think bitcoin drop drastically many people claimed with failed adoption bitcoin in El Savador but actually that not really true, bitcoin have many bad news every day and give negative side how to make bitcoin keep going dump. I sure have another day later bitcoin will back to higher price and all statement about bitcoin adoption failed in El Savador is big mistake.

I'm also of the opinion that they adopted before the protocol was ready to mass use by commoners. LN is still an experimental technology. We can't expect tech-illiterate people to constantly switch money between L1 and L2. Also, the Lightning Network is still too small, compared to the Bitcoin network.

Most BIPs in https://github.com/bitcoin/bips have not even reached Proposed status, implying more work is needed on those standards. The ones that are Proposed, or Active, do not have enough use to warrant them to become Final (the most glaring example being BIP39 - many wallets are using some non-standard derivative of it because of design flaws in the spec).

It seems to me that you (Hispo) conceded too much to Ratimov to agree that the introduction of BTC into El Salvador is any kind of failure both based on the early date of seeing what kinds of systems and usage is happening there, even if there may have been some areas in which some products did not perform up to expectations and/or even if the BTC price went down by around 75% if measured from the November 2021 top.

Ultimately, there are going to be needs to attempt to weigh areas of success such as citizens saving money on foreign remittances or the fact that people who start to use bitcoin have more options with areas that have not performed well such as trying to figure out if there are areas in which usability is confusing so sometimes people might consider bitcoin to be too confusing to try to learn and to try to either hold keys themselves or to be using third party custodians that might not make them feel that they are being empowered in any kind of way when the BTC price simultaneously ends up going down by quite a lot through the period so far, and maybe to try to figure out if areas that did not perform well or ease of usability can be improved.


I agree with your points and your framework Piesel, and of course, as some of us have already mentioned, it is way the fuck easier to try to educate folks in an active way and with bitcoin having a space within the country in which it is not only NOT ILLEGAL, but it is promoted by the country, so in that way, it can take some time for both the innovation attempts to take place, but also for citizens to both get used to the idea of having an additional option (bitcoin) and figuring out if there might be some kind of way that they consider themselves to be advantaged by getting involved in learning about the additional option that they have.


One of the advantages of any kind of a public institution getting involved in something like bitcoin would be the possibility that they would make some of their efforts public in order that both they can learn from the data and other places might be able to learn from the data too.

For example, in regards to bitcoin's price volatility, of course, any of us should be able to look at the price charts and to see that historically bitcoin's price has been quite volatile, so it would be difficult to blame El Salvador for bitcoin's price volatility, but it is possible to blame them if they were making representations about the BTC price and suggesting the BTC price to be more stable than we know it to have had been historically.  So sometimes there could be mistakes in terms of the government or its officials seeming to get too caught up with some of the hype and even making representations that the BTC price would not go below certain price points, and then they end up getting proven wrong because King Daddy does not give any shits about their thoughts/predictions about how low its price might go or not.

Through different surveys it is being described that adoption of bitcoin have failed in El Salvador. We don't know how far this is true, on the other side the government keeps adding more volume of bitcoin whenever there is crash in the market. At some point people will get used to it rather than opposing. At the beginning the users don't have much of understanding and that could've made them use the Chivo Wallet balance of $30 and stop using further. This will slowly progress when government find the right way of providing awareness.

Maybe there government is just hype on past condition where bitcoin is at green level. Also for some reasons maybe there are other people who's not been well educated the risk about its volatility that's why for other country who want to make bitcoin as their legal tender maybe they look at what El Salvador do first and avoid their mistakes so that they can smoothly  adopt bitcoin without any disturbance to them.

El Salvador have become the center of discussion when it comes to Bitcoin adoption among countries, while some believe that El Salvador have taken a historic paths in line with modern technological adoption as it relates to finances and economy, a lot of others have criticize El Salvador for adopting Bitcoin, and some of the arguments borders around the fact that.
1 El Salvador adopted too early
2 lack of adequate awareness and orientation among El Salvadorians

In all this I see that it is rather too early to expect much from this development as we all know that Bitcoin adoption is a big project that requires time and patience so we should not give a short time focus to a long term goal such as El Salvador Bitcoin adoption.

Yes, Bitcoin in El Salvador had a lacklustre beginning because the factors that you mentioned but a lacklustre beginning does not mean it has been an absolute failure, it is about its current form.


It is curious, because in the case of Venezuela, we started to slowly embrace cryptocurrency technology even though it was not endorsed by the state, in fact, back then Bitcoin mining was persecuted.

One can also make reference to the impact of stablecoins in Argentina, a country where foreign currencies are highly restricted to the common people-

We must note that President Bukele is a public servant that is accountable to the people. A good leader shouldn't be a despot that takes decisions without consulting the right people. And the right people to consult most times are not the smart ones or members of the President's cabinet but the end users of Bitcoin which are the common men on the street and other business owners. There is need to gather and analyse feedback from the people which would lead to reviewing of the policies or laws on Bitcoin as a legal tender in El Salvador. The country must keep adjusting and readjusting the formulation and implementation process of its laws on Bitcoin until it becomes more effective and efficient.

Most likely, I don't really disagree with your overall points Doan9269, including the other similar optimistic points that you made at around the same time of this post in another El Salvador thread. 

Nonetheless, I think that it would be better to attempt to frame matters a wee bit differently from the way that you are framing them, because it is almost starting to seem as if you are placing way too much god-like status on Bukele, and suggesting that he is wiser than others and anything that he does is good and should not be questioned, which surely is a dangerous way to frame matters.

Surely, I believe that a bunch of the bitcoin naysayers and the El Salvador bitcoin critics are wrong in their various premature assessments regarding the failures of the bitcoin tender law implementation in El Salvador, even if sometimes they might be bringing up some decent points regarding some of the speed bumps that have come up and also that there are potentials that some of the matters might not go as well as the El Salvador government sometimes seems to be framing matters.

I am NOT going to deny that Bukele does seem to be a pretty smart guy on the topic of bitcoin, and he seems to also be in the practice of consulting with quite a few smart people in regards to the bitcoin topic, even though we likely do not know details of the vast majority of whatever consultations that he is doing on the bitcoin implementation topic.

There also are going to be needs to account for on the ground developments in regards to a variety of topics including whether some of the governmental leaders or even private sector influential people within El Salvador are having difficulties with the implementation of the bitcoin law and various ramifications, and even if there are some segments of the population that have varying  views on the topic, so even though Bukele appears to be a wise leader, he does need to continue to have interaction with the various interest groups (stake holders) within the country and/or to have people who are close to him who can adequately and competently carry out those kinds of interactive functions.. such as gathering information, assessing the information to figure out if tweaks to their practices and approach should be made.

There are some aspects of bitcoin (especially regarding the future) that no one really knows with high levels of certainty, even though there can still be high levels of confidence that there are good faith efforts to attempt to employ the better of the possible paths to attempt to maximize various benefits that come from the implementation of the bitcoin legal tender laws, and almost no good thing is not without some needs to reach various balances, and to attempt to rebalance upon the best information available while recognizing that sometimes mistakes might be made along the way, too... including that sometimes there might end up being some individuals who are close to Bukele and supposed to be implementing the bitcoin law that might need to be replaced or even to be moved to a position (duties) that might be better suited to their skills and abilities which sometimes might end up in tougher decisions regarding firing some folks who might have gone astray in the process of carrying out their duties or going beyond what was expected... or not being able to get to the competency level in which they might be considered as useful to having a position within the administration.  Lots of shit happens, and Bukele is likely to make mistakes along the way too... or even to be faced with choices that he finds really difficult to make... including several possibilities about how to go forward in which sometimes there is not any kind of exact obvious right (or correct) choice... but then once the administration makes the choice they might still present it as the best of the choices (which may well be a spin rather than the actual truth.. which does not even necessarily mean that they did anything wrong or that they were acting unethically even though some folks might genuinely and reasonably perceive their actions in that way).

In my opinion it is too soon to call El Salvador experiment a failure, there is a long way ahead for Bitcoin as currency.
Also, I believe that this experiment is not just about the president having a treasury in Bitcoin but also about the use of Bitcoin as national income through mining and most importantly the use of Bitcoin to save money which could be lost because of remittances fees.
One can use Bitcoin to send remittances not matter the price it has on markets, for example.

So, let us sit back and pay attention to the development in El Salvador. Bitcoin price changes but the adoption must continue to increase, slowly but steadily.

that's why he's a leader, he leads and others follows, they don't really need to understand how and why his decisions and steps seems weird because he goes by his on vision he has and not working on other people's opinions, so don't expect them to believe in Nayib as long as the El-Savadorans do, a man who is liable to taking risk is a good entrepreneur, he's matured enough in making decisions regardless of the circumstances around it.


exactly just as the end justifies the means.

You should be taking the early opposition with a wee bit of skepticism (grain of salt) regarding how representative that it is in regards to bitcoin opposition rather than just general opposition, and surely there is going to be push back from international institutions, status quo rich, banking that could likely continue to build on opposition that may or may not infiltrate into grass roots type of opposition.


As you seem to be suggesting, there seems to be a bit of balancing that Bukele had been doing in terms of bitcoin adoption, and even if you look at his interview with Peter McCormick (as I had linked to that Bukele interview with McCormick earlier in this thread), you should be able to see for yourself by watching that interview that Bukele had been trying to consider a variety  of matters - as well as he seems to be very smart and insightful in regards to the ways that he talks about bitcoin... he's no dummy or schemer... at least he does not come off as that kind of a personality.

I wonder if bitcoin is still in bull season until today and bitcoin's price hits $100k, will El Salvador's bitcoin adoption be considered a failure? instead of suspecting they had failed, people will praising El Salvador.  Maybe the way Nayib Bukele approaches bitcoin isn't really that good, but that doesn't mean they're failing. We all know bitcoin is a long-term investment so it is too early to conclude anything.

Accepting bitcoin as legal tender is a bold decision, but as the president of a nation, I believe that Nayib Bukele researched and planned his decision, a long-term plan. We're experiencing a bear market and like us, Nayib Bukele is probably struggling a bit with bitcoin's price plummeting. But just don't give up and keep going, El Salvador will achieve the desired results. I wish them success with my decision.