Topic: [03-22-2015] When Does Bitcoin Become Money? (Read 2250 times)
Money must have universal acceptance, at least in a country. From this perspective, bitcoin is not even universal accepted on internet, not even mention the physical world, so it still have lots of catch up to do
Ability to pay taxes is one feature of 'money', but not the only.
Foreign currency can become legal tender. One example is Kosovo, which is not a member of the Euro zone. In 1999 the Deutsche Mark was unilaterally introduced as legal tender and in 2002 it was replaced by the Euro. They do not have their own currency and Euro is a foreign currency, but since you can even pay taxes with Euros it has all the features of money there.
Foreign currency can become legal tender. One example is Kosovo, which is not a member of the Euro zone. In 1999 the Deutsche Mark was unilaterally introduced as legal tender and in 2002 it was replaced by the Euro. They do not have their own currency and Euro is a foreign currency, but since you can even pay taxes with Euros it has all the features of money there.
When you can pay your taxes with it, other government things. Basically until then (forever?) it is not "real" money. I personally lean towards the German interpretation as a private money.
It's still money. Just because it's a foreign currency doesn't mean someone cannot accept it. It's still wealth.
Gold, stocks, real estate, bonds - that's all wealth. But you can't pay taxes with that, only with money you can.
That might be the definition of legal tender, but foreign currency is still money.
"Legal tender" is just the official status of money. Because Dollar is legal tender, you can pay taxes with them in the US. Yen is not legal tender in US, thus you can't pay taxes in the US. Ability to pay taxes is one important property of money, so Yen is not money in the US, although other features/properties of money for Yen are still given.
Being able to pay your taxes with something isn't the definition of something suddenly becoming money. Money doesn't suddenly become meaningless or worthless because you can't pay taxes with it. I can't pay US taxes with UK money but it's still money.
Some coiuntries even accept many other currencies from around the world. Some countries in Africa actually prefer dollars or euroes to their own fiat.
In those countries the US-Dollar is legal tender or defacto legal tender, so it becomes money there. Not true. There are many countries in Africa all with different laws regarding what is legal tender. I doubt you can pay your taxes in US dollars in most of them either. People just choose to accept whatever they want because other currencies are stronger, but are you saying if the us dollar falls out of favor in the US and bitcoin became their defacto currency then it would become 'money' there even if you couldn't pay your taxes with it? It's still money regardless but you seem to be contradicting yourself here.
http://btcfeed.net/news/when-does-bitcoin-become-money/
Many Bitcoin enthusiasts already see Bitcoin as just another form of money. And this is partially true, as you can use Bitcoin to pay for goods and services, both online and offline. However, the mainstream masses seem to associate Bitcoin with a “currency” at best, and “fake internet money” in the worst case scenario. But when will Bitcoin actually become money?
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Many Bitcoin enthusiasts already see Bitcoin as just another form of money. And this is partially true, as you can use Bitcoin to pay for goods and services, both online and offline. However, the mainstream masses seem to associate Bitcoin with a “currency” at best, and “fake internet money” in the worst case scenario. But when will Bitcoin actually become money?
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You must first define the word "money" so we could debate if bitcoin is money or not.
I think bitcoin is money. It is both a commodity and a currency, the distinction come with usage. When you buy and sell it on an exchange it is a commodity, however when you used it to buy or sell something else, that is where it is a means of exchange (of that "something else") as such is a currency.
To the extent that BTC is used more as a commodity than a currency it is a low store of value, to the extent that it is not directly tied to any govt, company, or entity it has low store of value, and to the extent that it is associated with the underclass of world society it has a low store of value; change those things and you suddenly increase security, and faith in the instrument to the extent that people will use it more as a currency than a commodity. When that happens it will become stable. The more stable the currency is, the less attractive it will be as a commodity and more attractive it will be as a currency.
It's still money. Just because it's a foreign currency doesn't mean someone cannot accept it. It's still wealth.
Gold, stocks, real estate, bonds - that's all wealth. But you can't pay taxes with that, only with money you can.
That might be the definition of legal tender, but foreign currency is still money.
"Legal tender" is just the official status of money. Because Dollar is legal tender, you can pay taxes with them in the US. Yen is not legal tender in US, thus you can't pay taxes in the US. Ability to pay taxes is one important property of money, so Yen is not money in the US, although other features/properties of money for Yen are still given.
Some coiuntries even accept many other currencies from around the world. Some countries in Africa actually prefer dollars or euroes to their own fiat.
In those countries the US-Dollar is legal tender or defacto legal tender, so it becomes money there. Besides, I think the very definition of what is money has changed or at least evolved with bitcoin.
No, Bitcoin does not change that. A power could define bitcoin as legal tender, but other features/properties of money are not given for bitcoin.
If you live in the US, can you pay your taxes with Euros? Most would argue that Euros are money, yet you cannot pay your taxes with them.
If you live in the US, Euro is a foreign currency only, not money.
It's still money. Just because it's a foreign currency doesn't mean someone cannot accept it. It's still wealth. Some coiuntries even accept many other currencies from around the world. Some countries in Africa actually prefer dollars or euroes to their own fiat.
Bitcoins, gold, silver and foreign currencies can be used like money, they have the properties of money, but they are not money, since money is something enforced by a government power.
That might be the definition of legal tender, but foreign currency is still money. Besides, I think the very definition of what is money has changed or at least evolved with bitcoin. Bitcoin is money to me regardless of a government not issuing it. It's still issued by the bitcoin software and issued fairly at that.
If you live in the US, can you pay your taxes with Euros? Most would argue that Euros are money, yet you cannot pay your taxes with them.
If you live in the US, Euro is a foreign currency only, not money.
Bitcoins, gold, silver and foreign currencies can be used like money, they have the properties of money, but they are not money, since money is something enforced by a government power.
Money:
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
All of the above is already possible with Bitcoin to some extent. I've been paid for goods and services with bitcoin and I've bought things with it. I also measure the value of things with Bitcoin. The fact that the "mainstream masses" think of it as fake money only proves how uneducated and ignorant they are.
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
All of the above is already possible with Bitcoin to some extent. I've been paid for goods and services with bitcoin and I've bought things with it. I also measure the value of things with Bitcoin. The fact that the "mainstream masses" think of it as fake money only proves how uneducated and ignorant they are.
I'd agree with this statement, by all definitions Bitcoin is money. The definition is pretty broad for money though, relying mostly on its abililty to be transacted to others for an interpreted value.
Money:
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
Can you pay your taxes with bitcoin?
You can not pay taxes with Bitcoin
If you live in the US, can you pay your taxes with Euros? Most would argue that Euros are money, yet you cannot pay your taxes with them.
Gold is not money, it is a valuable comodity. Money needs to be divisible to exchange for goods.
To a certain extent you are right. Gold coins have historically been used as money, but prior to gold's increase in value in comparison with fiat currencies, people realized that gold is too heavy and inconvient to carry around. Just about every mint in the world still produces gold coins that are legal tender, but they put the face value far below the gold's value so that its not feasible to use gold as a currency.
Gold is not money, it is a valuable comodity. Money needs to be divisible to exchange for goods.
but gold IS money, the best form of money.
That sounds more like religion.
I hope never, because it is superior to money.
I hope never, because it's gold.
but gold IS money, the best form of money.
Money:
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
Can you pay your taxes with bitcoin?
You can not pay taxes with Bitcoin
Money:
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.
Something (such as coins or bills) used as a way to pay for goods and services and to pay people for their work.
Can you pay your taxes with bitcoin?
Bitcoin became money the very first time someone bought something with it. Pizzas in this case? Sure bitcoin is volatile but I see it as the next step in the evolution of money. Hopefully at some point the volatility will steady or taper off at some point.
What are you talking about? Bitcoin is already money regardless of whether it or fiat is better.
Money is defined as such by a certain power by force = fiat, but bitcoin is consensus by people. It can be used like money, but by nature it's never money.
Their point is a bit invalid, as Bitcoin is already money, in my opinion. It's just not seen as such by the masses, and they do have a valid point about this:
This is pretty big. When something isn't priced in fiat, people will start looking at Bitcoin differently. I think retailers should try this in some products
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Last but not least, goods and services need to be priced in Bitcoin in 5-8 years from now. Most retailers that are accepting Bitcoin payments still list their items in fiat currency and accept the Bitcoin equivalent as payment. But what if products and services were to be listed in a Bitcoin value, regardless of the fiat currency value that would represent at any given time?
This is pretty big. When something isn't priced in fiat, people will start looking at Bitcoin differently. I think retailers should try this in some products
I hope never, because it is superior to money.
What are you talking about? Bitcoin is already money regardless of whether it or fiat is better.
Another requirement is that the price should be stable and gov should recognize the bitcoin as money. Otherwise the masses won't be comfortable to hold them.
May fiat monies lose value or fluctuate but they're still money. 1btc is still worth 1btc at the end of the day.
Bitcoin is not money by definition. It is a closer to being a foreign currency, foreign as in the currency of the internet. Story will be different in 3 to 5 years when we can buy food with bitcoin over the counter.
Well in most countries people are already buying food over the counter with it.
Only difference being ..... Merchants still want to convert it to fiat. In my opinion BTC had a bad start {MtGox / Silkroad etc. etc} .... if it was not for those things, we would have been much closer to mass adoption and Bitcoin being more like "money"
Until then, I will hoard/hodl it until I have enough to go on pension.
Bitcoin is not money by definition. It is a closer to being a foreign currency, foreign as in the currency of the internet. Story will be different in 3 to 5 years when we can buy food with bitcoin over the counter.
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