1% of offshore tax haven bank accounts in bitcoin = $2.8million/btc -trace mayer

beetcoin

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Quote from: Le Happy Merchant on November 30, 2013, 10:48:52 PM

Quote from: drnick on November 29, 2013, 09:33:21 PM

I think the error is in saying "Just 1%", which IMHO is more than would be allocated to bitcoin even at it's prime.

If you have an offshore account you have some wealth. You won't be putting a large % of your cash into bitcoin.

So now you have 3% of 2% of offshore wealth in bitcoin, which is 0.06% of that 30 trillion dollars. That would be about $168k/BTC.

You can revise what you feel is more realistic, but your equation should account for (level of adoption %) x (% allocation in bitcoin given adoption).

Don't forget that an estimated 65% of bitcoins has never been moved, and is likely to be lost.

are you saying that you think 65% of bitcoins are likely lost? maybe they've never been moved, but i strong doubt that even half of those coins have been lost. satoshi has 1.5 million of those, and i doubt he's somehow lost his PW. he just hasn't touched the coins in a long time.

sunnankar

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Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 30, 2013, 01:35:00 AM

Globally the entire M2 is roughly $25T, there is only ~$5T of M0 (currency).

Not sure how you are measuring since everything is so convoluted anyway. But the US is considered one of the largest tax havens and this is from Wikipedia on the FDIC:

Quote

As of September 30, 2012, total deposits at FDIC-insured institutions totaled roughly $10.54 trillion, although not all deposits are insured.

Another interesting article from ABC News.

Le Happy Merchant

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Quote from: drnick on November 29, 2013, 09:33:21 PM

I think the error is in saying "Just 1%", which IMHO is more than would be allocated to bitcoin even at it's prime.

If you have an offshore account you have some wealth. You won't be putting a large % of your cash into bitcoin.

So now you have 3% of 2% of offshore wealth in bitcoin, which is 0.06% of that 30 trillion dollars. That would be about $168k/BTC.

You can revise what you feel is more realistic, but your equation should account for (level of adoption %) x (% allocation in bitcoin given adoption).

Don't forget that an estimated 65% of bitcoins has never been moved, and is likely to be lost.

mel2000

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Quote

...If they do that and the tax cheats get their coins confiscated then the price will only rise much more for people who file their taxes. Criminals who hoard coins and who get arrested cannot spend their coins and so the price goes up again.

They will have to pay their taxes+penalties and they might get jail time, but they won't have all their coins confiscated.

Slingshot

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Correction:

There is "officially" just over 1 trillion in Federal Reserve Notes (so called US Dollars) worldwide.
============================================================

Of the physical 1 trillion or so, most of that is offshore. All the rest is merely digital.

At any rate just over 1 trillion physical dollars exist, officially (hint?). I don't recall the exact number but 1.1T rings a bell.

A good place to learn all things financial is of all places this http://dollarcollapse.com/

and

http://www.shadowstats.com/

Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!

Luckybit

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Quote from: Anon136 on November 29, 2013, 09:09:53 PM

Quote

"If you moved just 1% of the cash balances from off shore tax haven bank accounts, which currently hold estimated 30 trillion dollars of value, if you move just 1% of that into bitcoin you are looking at 2.8 million dollars per bitcoin"

That was a quote from trace mayer from (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZwmgeeFB-E&t=7m15s)

Is this right? Can anyone point out a flaw in this reasoning? That 1% figure makes 2.8 million dollars per bitcoin sound oddly conservative and saying 2.8 million dollars per btc is conservative makes me feel like i sound like I'm out of my mind. What do you guys think?

But that will never happen in that way. Bitcoin is a terrible tax haven because it's not cash, it's not anonymous, everyone can trace it whether it be Mallory or Gordon.

I would say it will definitely get over $10,000-100,000. It might get into the highs of $500,000-700,000 or even reach $1,000,000 but if it does it will not be because of people trying to avoid taxes and even if it is that wouldn't stop the IRS from confiscating.

Having said that if they do that and the tax cheats get their coins confiscated then the price will only rise much more for people who file their taxes. Criminals who hoard coins and who get arrested cannot spend their coins and so the price goes up again.

itsjustme

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Cayman Islands agrees to report US citizens’ offshore assets under controversial law

http://rt.com/business/cayman-tax-report-agreement-505/

Quote

The Cayman Islands has signed an agreement with the United States to combat offshore tax evasion pursuant to a controversial 2010 law that has caused some notable US expatriates to revoke their US citizenship.

...

The US agreed Tuesday to send Costa Rica tax information to its government regarding Costa Rican citizens with accounts in the US.

cr1776

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True. People are treating bitcoin as an asset and store of value even more so now, so it can tap into more than just the currency market - which I think was your point. :-)

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 30, 2013, 01:35:00 AM

There isn't $30T in cash in off shore accounts. there are $30T in ASSETS in offshore accounts. Big difference.

Globally the entire M2 is roughly $25T, there is only ~$5T of M0 (currency). However total global wealth (stocks, bonds, precious metals, property, patents, land, etc) is ~$240T.

niothor

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in defi we trust

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on November 30, 2013, 01:35:00 AM

There isn't $30T in cash in off shore accounts. there are $30T in ASSETS in offshore accounts. Big difference.

Globally the entire M2 is roughly $25T, there is only ~$5T of M0 (currency). However total global wealth (stocks, bonds, precious metals, property, patents, land, etc) is ~$240T.

Are you wikipedia or something?
I'm sometimes reading you post hunting for a mistake:)))))

xxnewbiecoinerxx

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Quote from: tutkarz on November 30, 2013, 03:55:43 AM

good thing is we don't need to rely only on offshore tax heavens, there are many more things that will drive the price.

+1

tutkarz

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good thing is we don't need to rely only on offshore tax heavens, there are many more things that will drive the price.

Sindelar1938

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Good point DeathandTaxes

DeathAndTaxes

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Gerald Davis

There isn't $30T in cash in off shore accounts. there are $30T in ASSETS in offshore accounts. Big difference.

Globally the entire M2 is roughly $25T, there is only ~$5T of M0 (currency). However total global wealth (stocks, bonds, precious metals, property, patents, land, etc) is ~$240T.

cr1776

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Given that the Cayman Islands and Costa Rica announced a deal yesterday (Friday, Nov 29, 2013 - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/29/cayman-costa-rica-us-tax ) that they will begin sharing data with the US IRS under FACTA, if I were a US citizen with that amount of undeclared wealth in either jurisdiction, I would be considering what to do to remedy that before the reporting begins.

The so called tax havens are disappearing to the control-freaks worldwide who believe the fruits of your labor are their's by right, so bitcoin provides a solution if people are aware.

beetcoin

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: beetcoin on November 29, 2013, 11:30:50 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: beetcoin on November 29, 2013, 09:29:27 PM

at those rates, we'd have multiple trillionaires holding BTC. that kind of seismic wealth redistribution would really upset the wealthy elite i'd think.

simple math: 1% of 30 trillion is .3 trillion, or 300 billion dollars for the market cap... so isn't that only about 12x present day value of BTC if the market cap is $300 billion? then again, we have to add that amount to our current market cap, but that wouldn't even be enough. there may be something wrong in my math though.. feel free to correct me anyone.

You can't just dump 300 billion into btc, though. You have to compete with others in order to buy in because it's a finite supply.

The price and 'market cap' goes up faster than the total amount of money coming in. Value is created out of thin air. There is nothing wrong with this, however. You are paying a premium to own a rare piece of revolutionary technology, and those who came before you are rewarded.

that's what i was thinking too.. 300 billion would leave the offshore accounts, but that would drive the price up and so new wealth is created. but the whole thing would be a mess though.

but there's no data or anything to suggest that 2.8 million would be the outcome. at least no data that i have access to.

Yeah, I really have no idea how you would go about calculating something like this, or if it's even possible. But I do think that the sometimes quoted price of 1 million is conservative, so this did catch my eye. I think most people try to be conservative in their estimates of future btc pricing because even the conservative estimates sound ridiculous to most people. Cheesy

i think it would be more predictable if that 300 billion were moved all at once, with a swift blow.. but there's obviously not enough liquidity to go around for that to occur.

Zangelbert Bingledack

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There's every reason to believe offshore account figures are hugely inflated for political reasons. "Look at all those fatcats cheating you out of your tax dollars! This is why we need AML/KYC and more tax laws and FBAR and FATCA." Still makes for good advertizing though.

However, it doesn't matter because if 1% goes to Bitcoin, 90% will follow soon after. Who in their right mind would stake BILLIONS on trust and jurisdictional stability (with extremely limited ability to access it, compared to Bitcoin). You don't get to be rich by taking unnecessary risks. Once the word gets out, this thing is gonna blow.

sunnankar

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Quote from: Anon136 on November 29, 2013, 09:09:53 PM

Is this right? Can anyone point out a flaw in this reasoning? That 1% figure makes 2.8 million dollars per bitcoin sound oddly conservative and saying 2.8 million dollars per btc is conservative makes me feel like i sound like I'm out of my mind. What do you guys think?

It actually is very conservative given the small amount of Bitcoins float due to unrecoverable private keys or bitcoins that for whatever reason are not 'salable'. Because of how prices are set at the margin and the large amount of private keys lost therefore it is possible for Bitcoin's market cap to be many trillions of USD.

To get a comparison to other currencies, assets, etc. see this infographic from RunToBitcoin.com:

beetcoin

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: beetcoin on November 29, 2013, 09:29:27 PM

at those rates, we'd have multiple trillionaires holding BTC. that kind of seismic wealth redistribution would really upset the wealthy elite i'd think.

simple math: 1% of 30 trillion is .3 trillion, or 300 billion dollars for the market cap... so isn't that only about 12x present day value of BTC if the market cap is $300 billion? then again, we have to add that amount to our current market cap, but that wouldn't even be enough. there may be something wrong in my math though.. feel free to correct me anyone.

You can't just dump 300 billion into btc, though. You have to compete with others in order to buy in because it's a finite supply.

The price and 'market cap' goes up faster than the total amount of money coming in. Value is created out of thin air. There is nothing wrong with this, however. You are paying a premium to own a rare piece of revolutionary technology, and those who came before you are rewarded.

that's what i was thinking too.. 300 billion would leave the offshore accounts, but that would drive the price up and so new wealth is created. but the whole thing would be a mess though.

but there's no data or anything to suggest that 2.8 million would be the outcome. at least no data that i have access to.

Anon136

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Quote from: beetcoin on November 29, 2013, 11:16:03 PM

Quote from: Anon136 on November 29, 2013, 11:14:54 PM

Quote from: beetcoin on November 29, 2013, 09:29:27 PM

at those rates, we'd have multiple trillionaires holding BTC. that kind of seismic wealth redistribution would really upset the wealthy elite i'd think.

simple math: 1% of 30 trillion is .3 trillion, or 300 billion dollars for the market cap... so isn't that only about 12x present day value of BTC if the market cap is $300 billion? then again, we have to add that amount to our current market cap, but that wouldn't even be enough. there may be something wrong in my math though.. feel free to correct me anyone.

your math seems right to me.

yeah, so i don't know where he got that $2.8M number, but it doesn't seem right.

not sure. i looked up the 30 trillion number and that number seems right. even the whole 30 trillion devided into 21million is only 1.4 million. He is active on these forums, maybe he will stop by here and weigh in.

pera

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At the current price that would be around 250000BTC there is not enough supply for that, the price would jump exponentially

Topic: 1% of offshore tax haven bank accounts in bitcoin = $2.8million/btc -trace mayer (Read 3777 times)