10 top reasons why organised crime would be better than the State - page 2.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: grondilu on July 06, 2012, 09:57:08 AM

Quote from: Realpra on July 06, 2012, 09:42:08 AM

I get why people are hating on governments, but we seriously need to try to find some solutions, not just abandon all society/civilization.

That's too easy. You can not just defend something by arguying that without it it would be the end of civilization. I just don't agree with this prediction.

Get rid of governments and something else will emerge. Maybe it will be chaos, maybe it will be just another form of government. I don't know. What I know is that I'm so fed up with elected governments that I want to accept the risk of trying something else.

Good plan. North Korean and Syria have skipped the farce of electing governments and its great in every...oh wait, its a bloody nightmare.

grondilu

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1080

Quote from: Realpra on July 06, 2012, 09:42:08 AM

I get why people are hating on governments, but we seriously need to try to find some solutions, not just abandon all society/civilization.

That's too easy. You can not just defend something by arguying that without it it would be the end of civilization. I just don't agree with this prediction.

Get rid of governments and something else will emerge. Maybe it will be chaos, maybe it will be just another form of government. I don't know. What I know is that I'm so fed up with elected governments that I want to accept the risk of trying something else.

Realpra

hero member

Activity: 815

Merit: 1000

+10 for Hawker.

I get why people are hating on governments, but we seriously need to try to find some solutions, not just abandon all society/civilization.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

More research on David Friedman...

Consider the cost of a rights enforcement agency. In today's system, with a police force, we might have 1,000 officers for a particular geographical region. They cost X dollars.

In Friedman's system, he says we'll have a choice between many agencies. How many? One? That's not a choice. How about five? So for equivalent coverage, that's 5,000 officers. So the cost to the customer is 5X. Wonderful.

Oh, there's an alternative. The rights defense agencies contract with the same 1,000 officers. Paid mercenaries, so to speak. Strange. But at least the cost is down to X again.

Oh, and regarding Friedman's knowledge of the environment, I'm still waiting for it.

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: myrkul on July 01, 2012, 01:26:02 PM

Quote from: Hawker on July 01, 2012, 01:16:30 PM

myrkul has sort of left reality so far behind it isn't really worth it anymore. One day his dream world has arbitration which can't compel attendance. The next day it can. In this thread, he says guys who kidnap, rape and kill girls are preferable to guys who are elected. What's the point in debating that?

You make a fine point. Of course, that point is based on a complete misunderstanding of my case....Perhaps if you did research of the topic on your own instead of just relying on my (admittedly sometimes imperfect) defense of it, you would understand better. Just a few posts up, there's an excellent link, which would be a fine way to spend a small segment of your evening.

I'm doing research on David Friedman. Please show me where his theories factor in environmental issues. I want to see that he has strong knowledge in that field - not just a superficial understanding.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Hawker on July 01, 2012, 01:16:30 PM

myrkul has sort of left reality so far behind it isn't really worth it anymore. One day his dream world has arbitration which can't compel attendance. The next day it can. In this thread, he says guys who kidnap, rape and kill girls are preferable to guys who are elected. What's the point in debating that?

You make a fine point. Of course, that point is based on a complete misunderstanding of my case....Perhaps if you did research of the topic on your own instead of just relying on my (admittedly sometimes imperfect) defense of it, you would understand better. Just a few posts up, there's an excellent link, which would be a fine way to spend a small segment of your evening.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: FirstAscent on July 01, 2012, 01:06:47 PM

...snip...

It is how he'd like it. I specifically stated in another thread that NAP would devolve (or evolve) into a mafia like environment. Buying defense and security would be buying protection from a mafia family, and the prices would be high.

myrkul has sort of left reality so far behind it isn't really worth it anymore. One day his dream world has arbitration which can't compel attendance. The next day it can. In this thread, he says guys who kidnap, rape and kill girls are preferable to guys who are elected. What's the point in debating that?

FirstAscent

hero member

Activity: 812

Merit: 1000

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 03:42:06 AM

Quote from: myrkul on June 28, 2012, 04:47:05 PM

Quote from: Hawker on June 28, 2012, 04:06:49 PM

Kidnapping is usually done for profit; not for political ends. To describe the sadists who do that as "honourable" and preferable to an elected government is fatuous.

I agree completely, but again, I think you have mistaken terrorist organizations for organized crime. She was referring to this organization, and ones like it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

Yes. When I lived in Boston, all the coin machines in bars came from one mafia family, the Bulgers. I'm told another Italian family owned the right to dispose of trash. If you wanted to compete, you would have to kill them. If they disapproved of you, they would kidnap and kill you. Whitey Bulger is on trial for the death of a girl who was raped and strangled. Before that, for years, one of his enforcers "owned" the girl and her mother and had been having his way with her since her puberty.

That's honourable? That's how you would like the country to be run? Really?

It is how he'd like it. I specifically stated in another thread that NAP would devolve (or evolve) into a mafia like environment. Buying defense and security would be buying protection from a mafia family, and the prices would be high.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Transisto on June 29, 2012, 12:58:01 PM

If you haven't yet, you must watch :
The Machinery Of Freedom by David Friedman (Illustrated summary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jTYkdEU_B4o#

This is getting cross-posted in the other threads. If you doubt the fairness of NAP and market anarchy, This will be a good use of 23 of your minutes.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 03:57:17 PM

I suggest you run for election. You may be surprised to find that even the people you totally disagree with are decent guys who want to make the world a better place.

Be that as it may, forcing their decisions on other people is not the way to do it....

Quote from: C. S. Lewis

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: myrkul on June 29, 2012, 11:56:10 AM

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 08:48:17 AM

So you feel that being controlled by people who kidnap, rape and murder of a girl is better than a system where you elect a government. How does that fit your posts about the NAP?

But I did not elect the government we have now, the vast majority of government employees are not elected, anyway, and if you think government does not kidnap, and murder, and if not actively participate, then at least turn a blind eye to rape, to say nothing of torture, then you are more naive than you think I am.

I suggest you run for election. You may be surprised to find that even the people you totally disagree with are decent guys who want to make the world a better place.

Transisto

donator

Activity: 1731

Merit: 1008

I was expecting more compelling reasons, funny nonetheless

If you haven't yet, you must watch :
The Machinery Of Freedom by David Friedman (Illustrated summary) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=jTYkdEU_B4o#

Relevant part, Right enforcement agencies : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTYkdEU_B4o&feature=player_detailpage#t=183s

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 08:48:17 AM

So you feel that being controlled by people who kidnap, rape and murder of a girl is better than a system where you elect a government. How does that fit your posts about the NAP?

But I did not elect the government we have now, the vast majority of government employees are not elected, anyway, and if you think government does not kidnap, and murder, and if not actively participate, then at least turn a blind eye to rape, to say nothing of torture, then you are more naive than you think I am.

grondilu

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1080

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 08:45:27 AM

If you think kidnap, rape and murder are less intrusive than traffic rules, you have a funny sense of "style"

I may have a romantic idea of organised crime, but to me it is much more about racket, drug traffic and proxenetism.

By comparaison, state is about racket (taxes), sequestration (jail) and endoctrination (schools and publicly financed medias).

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: myrkul on June 29, 2012, 05:38:18 AM

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 03:42:06 AM

That's honourable? That's how you would like the country to be run? Really?

Didn't say it was the preferred way of doing things, just that it is better than the system we have now. I also didn't say they were nice people, but at least they're honest about it. I believe I've thoroughly discussed the method I would prefer.

Quote from: cbeast on June 29, 2012, 03:53:54 AM

I find this repulsive. Having a family member murdered by a rogue cartel member because he refused to do their bidding makes me realize more and more that most libertarians are sociopaths.

[edit] Present company excepted, of course!

I'm sorry to hear that. What happened to the rogue cartel member? Was he brought to justice?

So you feel that being controlled by people who kidnap, rape and murder of a girl is better than a system where you elect a government. How does that fit your posts about the NAP?

Hawker

legendary

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1001

Quote from: grondilu on June 29, 2012, 07:27:00 AM

Quote from: Hawker on June 28, 2012, 12:34:26 PM

First you have anarchy, then warlords and then one wins and that's your new government.

I think you missed the point of the old lady.

In a nuttshell: it's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of style.

Even when a mafia war ends up with a unique winner, it doesn't have to necessarly end up with a bureaucratic, private life intrusive government. The lady speaker was not bashing the uniqueness of the government, but what it does and how it does it.

If you think kidnap, rape and murder are less intrusive than traffic rules, you have a funny sense of "style"

grondilu

legendary

Activity: 1288

Merit: 1080

Quote from: Hawker on June 28, 2012, 12:34:26 PM

First you have anarchy, then warlords and then one wins and that's your new government.

I think you missed the point of the old lady.

In a nuttshell: it's not a matter of scale, it's a matter of style.

Even when a mafia war ends up with a unique winner, it doesn't have to necessarly end up with a bureaucratic, private life intrusive government. The lady speaker was not bashing the uniqueness of the government, but what it does and how it does it.

cbeast

donator

Activity: 1736

Merit: 1014

Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.

Quote from: myrkul on June 29, 2012, 05:38:18 AM

I'm sorry to hear that. What happened to the rogue cartel member? Was he brought to justice?

No. The crime was cleaned up by the police. The evidence was destroyed. The cartel takes care of its own, even the rogue ones.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: Hawker on June 29, 2012, 03:42:06 AM

That's honourable? That's how you would like the country to be run? Really?

Didn't say it was the preferred way of doing things, just that it is better than the system we have now. I also didn't say they were nice people, but at least they're honest about it. I believe I've thoroughly discussed the method I would prefer.

Quote from: cbeast on June 29, 2012, 03:53:54 AM

I find this repulsive. Having a family member murdered by a rogue cartel member because he refused to do their bidding makes me realize more and more that most libertarians are sociopaths.

[edit] Present company excepted, of course!

I'm sorry to hear that. What happened to the rogue cartel member? Was he brought to justice?

bb113

hero member

Activity: 728

Merit: 500

Quote from: myrkul on June 28, 2012, 12:54:52 PM

Quote from: Hawker on June 28, 2012, 12:42:39 PM

I don't. I acknowledge that people always end up with some kind of state and I aim to make sure its as decent as possible.

EDIT: watched it. This poor woman has never dealt with organised crime. 2 weeks chained to a radiator while her home is being sold to pay a ransom and she would have a very different view of their honour, simple rules, desire for you to succeed and all that other crap.

I think you are confusing organized crime with terrorist organizations.

I know a guy from pakistan who's grandma was kidnapped by some al queda group. They put her in a house and kept her comfortable (she even had a maid) but basically wouldn't let the family see her again until they paid up however many rupees equal around 10k USD. Eventually they just paid rather than have the military go in (it was the cheapest and least dangerous way to resolve the situation).

Topic: 10 top reasons why organised crime would be better than the State - page 2. (Read 3593 times)