Topic: [~1000 GH/sec] BTC Guild - 0% Fee Pool, LP, SSL, Full Precision, and More - page 41. (Read 379084 times)

I think he meant you're assuming the pools won't simply block/delay the another pool's message so that they can become the block generator instead.

I really don't see how that is an issue in regards to what I'm saying whether you're being sarcastic or not.

The pools won't delay each other's messages, either.

how do you even know who the pool is connected to? i thought it kept a large number of connection. even If you could find out who it was connected to the pool owner could just set it up to switch to different nodes so they are never the same. for reliability, it could use 100(?) out of 500(?) commonly used 'well connected' nodes mixed with random normal nodes. if any of the 'well connected' nodes go down it just connects to 'normal' nodes. am i missing something?(entirely likely lol)

Edit: you could also have the 3 big pools connect to each other as well, the block would be sent out through all 3 pools making it nearly impossible to tell which sent it out.

The DDOS part is easy to avoid. Have two or three (or more) proxies.


I dont see how you would get an increase in 14% earnings. Imagine a proxy of three pools. The proxy emits a new block mesage and you properly guess its coming from that proxy. Now you move your miners proportionally (the way you preffer) to the three pools connected to that proxy. You might be gaining by connecting to the pool that just found a new block, but how do you know that the other two pools are not in a bad strike and you are hashing low profitable shares? It might increase a bit your earnings, but not close to 14%.

But even that can be avoided. The pools could have several proxies and rotate among them randomly. That would stop also the DDOS attacks (or make them more difficult). Now the groups are not defined but change randomly. How could you attack such system?


Costumers are free to complain to the business owners about the service and go away if their complaints are not met. If the clients keep returning to the business it means they dont care that much about it. If the owners feel it would improve the service they can decide to change the way their business operate to accomodate some of the complaints of the costumers. If other costumers dont like the changes they can complain and/or go away as well. I dont see the big deal.

1) By DDoSing the proxy you delay 2-3 pools instead of just one. This means it is 2-3 times more effective.

2) You cannot avoid clients (it is just a protocol, any information about cients in there can be faked). Avoiding them will be hard, as there is no way to check if a client has forwarded a block or not (and if there was a request, it would of course be answered "true" by the fake client). This is the exact opposite of spam by the way...

3) They offer 0 advantages over other payout systems, are however possible to be hopped, which only increases the income of hoppers and pool owners. Countermeasures lead to worse and worse transparency and services of the pool operator - again only at the benefit that the payout system stays the same (broken) one as before and you don't have to explain something new to your miners but boast about your "great service" of "fighting hoppers" (and of course there's the benefit for the pool operator that cheating gets easier for him + the income is increased by hoppers who DO work like everyone else, just not 24/7).


Such a proxy as you suggest would add 1 additional hop and need to relay ALL bitcoin related traffic for several pools... Yes, it would be a more interesting challenge to hop these pools then individually, but in the end you could just split your hash rate between all pools if it is just 2-3 pools behind this proxy. 14% increased earnings are still better then nothing, right?

If there would be a pool that is bigger than the other, then you could even weigh the splitting accordingly.


By the way, I like to get my burgers at that time of the day when they have special deals and offer them cheaper... and some people like to bitch that the normal price is higher and they always buy it at these prices!
Right now they swipe your credit card and tell you an hour later how much it did cost.

Why would anyone spend any effort in building or going to another restaurant when a sucker already built this one? He even gives you the option to not pay for what you eat (0% donation). I sure as hell ain't recommending the people who pay me to manage their accounts and hardware to leave this place until it burns to the ground. If anyone was really out to hurt this pool, they should just stop donating en masse.   

+1

So you leave and go to another place to get your burger. If enough clients dont like how the fast good burger place is operated it will loose a lot of the clients and it will close. So far, it seems the majority of the BTCGuild users like the changes. Nobody is stopping from creating your own pool if you think you can do better.

Yeah, well, delayed stats is kinda like when you go to Burger King and ask for a burger with cheddar cheese, and they say, "You can't have it your way!" So, you say, "Well, I have my OWN cheddar cheese! I'll just put it on top." Then they say, "You can't bring outside food into here!" Yeah, it's kinda like that.

No, because it would be a private proxy, where only 2 or 3 pools have their bitcoind connected.

1) You can still DDoS their bitcoind now. Just because groups of 2 or 3 pools join together doesnt change the game much.

2) You could not connect, it would be a private proxy only used by the bitcoind of the selected pools. Read too quick. I think if someone did something like this, it would be considered spam and some measure would be taken to avoid those clients or IP's.

3) Whats your beef against proportional pools?

Proxy = single point of failure.

Proxys of other pool clusters seem like a good target to DDoS to me...

Also connecting to that proxy with as many (forged/fake) clients as possible and just dropping block announcements silently might also work (and be a bit more subtle) - should also highly increase your pool's chances of winning a "block's race".

Thirdly, non-proportional pools all don't need this Voodoo (so they would be far better connected to the network --> better chances at block solves!), and there are not that many "groups of 3 and 4" pools left for such stuff... thanks to the hoppers!

So I was thinking in a way to stop this and I think its easy: Just have deepbit, BTCGuild and maybe others bitcoind client connect to the Bitcoin network throught the same proxy. The pools would still have the same chance of propagating when a new block is found because they are using the same proxy, but the pool hoopers would not know from which pool is coming because all they see is the messages coming from the same source.

Ideally pools would join in groups of 3 and 4 and create several proxies so there would be less chance of cheating and it would be more decentralized.

Thoughts?

yay!  except for 1703, there's a good streak of short blocks.

any chance to get the current round/block time back up by the servers list box thingy majigger

Nah, it's more like a group of mercenaries signed up to fight a war. However some people disappear every time a battle lasts more than 5 minutes but still get paid like those who slugged it out for the next 8 hours.

Bad analogy. A better analogy would be that the owner of the stadium has changed the horse racing rules to make the race more even and give a better spectacle.

Do you realize that if everybody pool hooped the pools would suddenly get stuck in a block because everybody would have gone away? And please, stop the bullshit that you are so clever because you downloaded a program from the Internet that allows you to pool hoop. If I wanted to I could download the same program and run it. Its nothing special.

Its normal that the people who dont pool hoop have asked the pool owner to do something about it. They are being loyal to the pool, sticking around during the long rounds and contributing the less payed shares, and getting the worst part of the deal. The pool owner has decided what type of user s/he wants. Why are you complaining?

that's pretty funny.  I also think the piracy analogy was bad.

That really is an awful analogy.  Pool hoppers are not violating any law or breaking any rule. 

That's a horrible analogy, unless you are trying to find some sort of moral equivalent to the "wrongness" of the situation. It's more like playing poker and some people have sunglasses on, but you don't like that.

The system is "broken". If you don't take advantage, you *are* a sucker... or lazy.

It's not already done? For hopping to be closer to impossible, a lot more work and/or a lot less transparency will need to happen.