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Topic: [2019-06-15] IRS turning its attention to recreational bitcoin investors - page 2. (Read 9637 times)

legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 3015
Welt Am Draht
Instead of this, wouldn't a better use of their resources and time better directed to investigating certain multibillion and transnational companies for their tax evasion behavior? But of course, they'd like to target everyday Joes instead, with extremely tough tax codes that are hard to understand for specific circumstances.

Those corporations aren't tax evading. They're tax avoiding. They have enough lawyers to know that whatever they pull stands up to scrutiny even if it's offensive. That's perfectly legal and the conditions to foster it are created by legislators in the first place. If it's unintentional then that reflects poorly on their thoroughness.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
Instead of this, wouldn't a better use of their resources and time better directed to investigating certain multibillion and transnational companies for their tax evasion behavior?
Absolutely. Go and do an internet search for "*Large corporation name* tax", and see what shows up. Amazon paid zero tax on $11 billion profits. Google move over $20 billion to Bermuda to avoid taxes. Starbucks in Europe paid an effective tax rate of 2.8%, while Apple paid less than 1%. There are billions and billions of dollars in unpaid, avoided, sheltered, and evaded corporation tax, but of course you can't annoy the the companies who have bought out 99% of the politicians. Much easier to go after the average Joe who is trading a couple of hundred or thousand dollars of crypto.

They can only track people effectively really through regulated channels.
Pretty much this. Everyone knows that "cash in hand" jobs are used for tax evasion, but they are still commonplace because they are near impossible to clamp down on. Peer to peer crypto trading is similarly difficult to regulate, provided you aren't using address which are somehow tied to your identity, such as from an exchange you have completed KYC on.
hero member
Activity: 1526
Merit: 596
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This is what the IRS does very well. Making criminals of innocent people like you.

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The Internal Revenue Service has a message it wants to get out to recreational bitcoin investors who think they can dodge taxes on their cryptocurrency gains — it knows what’s going on, and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.

Instead of this, wouldn't a better use of their resources and time better directed to investigating certain multibillion and transnational companies for their tax evasion behavior? But of course, they'd like to target everyday Joes instead, with extremely tough tax codes that are hard to understand for specific circumstances.

It comes across like that they're trying to use some sort of scare tactic here, because they know that the enforce-ability of tracing all transactions over the blockchain, especially for anonymous blockchains, is quite hard. They can only track people effectively really through regulated channels.

Of course, you should lodge your capital gains, and I do believe that given the maturation of the tax code in regards to crypto, this increase in investigations in regards to CGT of crypto income will continue to grow. I'm not saying that people should evade tax. But instead of trying to regulate large corporations more effectively, they may be putting resources in the wrong direction.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 1012
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
Ok, can I pay them from my collection of NBA basketball cards? There was no cash in the exchange, only cards. If they tax for example they tax me 10% for a trade, will they accept a 10% portion of the card?
It doesn't matter if there was no cash in the exchange, and it doesn't matter if you trade something for something of an exactly equal value. It doesn't even matter if you trade a pristine Exquisite Collection LeBron James card for a completely identical pristine Exquisite Collection LeBron James card. For the purposes of tax, you sold one for USD, realized a gain in USD on the sale, and then bought the other one for the exact same price in USD. You have to pay taxes in USD on your realized USD gains.

I reckon this is a government in desperation. It cannot do anything to the cryptospace except lockdown on users on exchanges that have KYC. What can the government do if you personally give me bitcoin for an altcoin?
I agree with you, I'm just stating the rules the IRS have issued. Any trade from crypto to crypto, even without touching fiat, is a taxable event if you are a US citizen.

To take it beyond that, the IRS has explicitly stated that really anything besides property cannot be exchanged tax free. There used to be a loop hole around what BBC was saying whereby it could possibly be deemed a like kind exchange (still needs to be reported which I am sure no one did so still against the law), but that was closed and explicitly stated as only applying to real estate.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
Ok, can I pay them from my collection of NBA basketball cards? There was no cash in the exchange, only cards. If they tax for example they tax me 10% for a trade, will they accept a 10% portion of the card?
It doesn't matter if there was no cash in the exchange, and it doesn't matter if you trade something for something of an exactly equal value. It doesn't even matter if you trade a pristine Exquisite Collection LeBron James card for a completely identical pristine Exquisite Collection LeBron James card. For the purposes of tax, you sold one for USD, realized a gain in USD on the sale, and then bought the other one for the exact same price in USD. You have to pay taxes in USD on your realized USD gains.

I reckon this is a government in desperation. It cannot do anything to the cryptospace except lockdown on users on exchanges that have KYC. What can the government do if you personally give me bitcoin for an altcoin?
I agree with you, I'm just stating the rules the IRS have issued. Any trade from crypto to crypto, even without touching fiat, is a taxable event if you are a US citizen.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1483
Ok, can I pay them from my collection of NBA basketball cards? There was no cash in the exchange, only cards. If they tax for example they tax me 10% for a trade, will they accept a 10% portion of the card?

even if bartering is your only source of income, the IRS expects you to pay your taxes in USD. this is why people always speculate about bitcoin selling off as we approach tax day in april every year. the assumption is that people need cash to pay their taxes, so they sell coins.

What can the government do if you personally give me bitcoin for an altcoin?

they can't enforce anything in p2p situations. but that's not who they are coming after. they are going after the low hanging fruit---people who trade on exchanges and give up their KYC but still don't pay their taxes.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
Would trading baseball cards for basketball cards among sports enthusiasts then also be a taxable event?
Yes:
You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering.
Generally the view is that if you barter, swap, or trade, any goods or services, for tax purposes it should be treated as two separate trades - first you initially sell your good for x dollars, and then you immediately buy the other good in question for the same amount. You then have to pay tax on the money received on the initial sell. This is can be complicated further by how much profit you made from selling the original good, how much the price changed while you owned it, how long you have owned it for, etc.

I have no doubt swaps and trades happen all the time without people paying tax on them, but as far as the IRS are concerned, they want their cut even if no cash is involved. Crypto is no different.

Ok, can I pay them from my collection of NBA basketball cards? There was no cash in the exchange, only cards. If they tax for example they tax me 10% for a trade, will they accept a 10% portion of the card?

I reckon this is a government in desperation. It cannot do anything to the cryptospace except lockdown on users on exchanges that have KYC. What can the government do if you personally give me bitcoin for an altcoin?
legendary
Activity: 3542
Merit: 1965
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
America are ready to go to war again and wars are expensive, so the IRS must find new ways to fund the war. < We already saw 1000s of soldiers being deployed to the Middle East again >  Roll Eyes

The IRS are helping to fund these wars and the people who thought that they can escape death & taxes, will soon face that reality. I pay my taxes, because I know tax evasion is a criminal offense in my country and I am too busy making money to have to waste my time in jail.  Tongue

Pay the damn taxes and be done with it.  Angry
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
Would trading baseball cards for basketball cards among sports enthusiasts then also be a taxable event?
Yes:
You must include in gross income in the year of receipt the fair market value of goods or services received from bartering.
Generally the view is that if you barter, swap, or trade, any goods or services, for tax purposes it should be treated as two separate trades - first you initially sell your good for x dollars, and then you immediately buy the other good in question for the same amount. You then have to pay tax on the money received on the initial sell. This is can be complicated further by how much profit you made from selling the original good, how much the price changed while you owned it, how long you have owned it for, etc.

I have no doubt swaps and trades happen all the time without people paying tax on them, but as far as the IRS are concerned, they want their cut even if no cash is involved. Crypto is no different.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 1012
Get Paid Crypto To Walk or Drive
Is there interest in a licensed CPA to complete your tax returns that involve crypto? I have thought about this for awhile, but I am not sure if it is a service that people would be interested in or not? I also think there could be a market for just general advice or knowledge on how to handle different situations, basically paying a fee to have a CPA on call for any crypto tax questions.
legendary
Activity: 3346
Merit: 1352
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
@o_e_l_e_o. Would trading baseball cards for basketball cards among sports enthusiasts then also be a taxable event? For the lack of laws defining cryptocoins, I reckon they can only be something similar to collectibles.

Well... this is a very good point.

I have no issues in case the government is taxing the profits from crypto-to-fiat conversion. They can even implement VAT or GST over fiat-to-crypto conversion as well. But what about selling one crypto to purchase another cryptocurrency? This is taxable in some of the territories and in ideal case there should not be any tax burden on such trades. Then another difficult question arises. What about selling crypto to Tether or other stablecoins? I would say that Tether is just another crypto and it should not be taxed.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
@o_e_l_e_o. Would trading baseball cards for basketball cards among sports enthusiasts then also be a taxable event? For the lack of laws defining cryptocoins, I reckon they can only be something similar to collectibles.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
What gains? There are no gains until you sell any cryptocoin for fiat later. Does the American government tax people for paper gains from holding stocks.
The IRS says that trading a cryptocurrency for another cryptocurrency is a taxable event, even if the trade never touched fiat in any way. If you are using BTC to day trade an altcoin, or using a stable coin like USDT to day trade BTC, every single buy/sell/trade needs to be declared and have tax paid on it based on the market value in USD at the time of the trade.

If overall you lost money in a financial year from trading crypto, you can file those losses to offset taxes you will pay on other income.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
Make gains on what, however. In bitcoins? America does not have a law defining what bitcoin really is. Is it a commodity or a currency?

In any case, this would be one of the reasons to use anonymous coins. Tax evasion hehehe.

Trading profits, virtual gains, etc.

It doesn't matter what Bitcoin 'really' is, what matters is that you can always fit it in the appropriate section of your tax form. I used to use the alternative section for that, but now they specifically mention crypto by referring to it as digital currencies like Bitcoin, which is pretty neat. This causes less confusion and makes it clearer as to what section you should select.

I can buy a pair of stinky socks for x amount and sell them for y amount and still be subject to taxation. Anything is pretty much subject to taxation unless stated otherwise.

What gains? There are no gains until you sell any cryptocoin for fiat later. Does the American government tax people for paper gains from holding stocks. I reckon no government does, but correct me.

Also, will they give tax breaks to people who lost money in the cryptospace hehehe?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
There's probably still lots of lower hanging fruit they can go after. Proving cases with wallet analysis and non-KYC services is going to be much more challenging in a jury trial than Coinbase users who made 5-7 figure profits trading over years and never paid their taxes. From the statistics the IRS released about Bitcoin capital gain reporting vs. the number of high volume Coinbase users, there are lots of people relying on the notion that the IRS won't audit them.
We've known this was coming for a while now. Last year, Coinbase handed over to the IRS the details of 13,000 USA users who were holding greater than $20,000 in assets on the exchange. The IRS had initially demanded the details of almost half a million users, but Coinbase challenged it in court and the final number affect was around 13,000. Anyone who thought the IRS were just going to accept that defeat and move on was living in a fantasy land.

If you have completed KYC procedures on Coinbase (or any other major exchange for that matter), expect that sooner or later your details are going to passed to your government. If you haven't been paying your taxes, now is the time to rectify that before they come knocking on your door, so to speak.
hero member
Activity: 1680
Merit: 655
I do consider this just a friendly reminder fo their U.S. citizens planning to invest in the crypto industry as from what I recall they already have some control in wallets and exchanges like Coimbase and Binance in the country. I have read news before that the crypto exchanges do submit “random” trade transactions from their citizens as well as alert them when a certain threshold has been hit. This may look like a bad news but taxes are taxes and we do have to pay them, we might as well pay them before some crazy regulation happens.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1196
STOP SNITCHIN'
At times like this I'm so happy that I don't live in the US.
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and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.

This looks like a hint that they are still trying to set up the surveillance and those who didn't pay their crypto taxes in the last 10 years are fine Cheesy

If I were a US trader I'd start packing before they get comfortable with tracing transactions and wallets and connecting them with names.

There's probably still lots of lower hanging fruit they can go after. Proving cases with wallet analysis and non-KYC services is going to be much more challenging in a jury trial than Coinbase users who made 5-7 figure profits trading over years and never paid their taxes. From the statistics the IRS released about Bitcoin capital gain reporting vs. the number of high volume Coinbase users, there are lots of people relying on the notion that the IRS won't audit them.
hero member
Activity: 2184
Merit: 531
At times like this I'm so happy that I don't live in the US.
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and people won’t be able to get away with it for long.


This looks like a hint that they are still trying to set up the surveillance and those who didn't pay their crypto taxes in the last 10 years are fine Cheesy

If I were a US trader I'd start packing before they get comfortable with tracing transactions and wallets and connecting them with names.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 3684
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What kind of attack are we talking about? I would be very surprised if there weren't government adversaries on the network, for the same reason they run TOR exit nodes. They're sniffing for network data like IP addresses to accompany their blockchain analysis efforts. They're working to identify our wallet clusters. The IRS is very interested in identifying our wallets, I'm sure.
Attack as in making it illegal to run a node. It could be on a corporate level where datacenters are no longer allowed to have their clients run them, or on a level where ISPs are cutting off nodes of you and me at home.

And yes, I'm sure there are a wide variety of agencies sniffing around in the network to gather information about money flows, who and where nodes, etc. They probably have been here longer than most people know about Bitcoin.

Yeah, by the time we hear about the news, it'll be too late. These guys control the release of information and awareness of their activities. Make no mistake, they want us to know about what they're doing when they want us to know.

As soon as they understand more about Bitcoin, they'll get on that sort of work underway. They probably still want to get their hooks in deep now, so won't make running nodes illegal just yet. Once they're sure they can kill it, or even takeover them, you can be sure they'll try.
legendary
Activity: 2170
Merit: 1427
Make gains on what, however. In bitcoins? America does not have a law defining what bitcoin really is. Is it a commodity or a currency?

In any case, this would be one of the reasons to use anonymous coins. Tax evasion hehehe.

Trading profits, virtual gains, etc.

It doesn't matter what Bitcoin 'really' is, what matters is that you can always fit it in the appropriate section of your tax form. I used to use the alternative section for that, but now they specifically mention crypto by referring to it as digital currencies like Bitcoin, which is pretty neat. This causes less confusion and makes it clearer as to what section you should select.

I can buy a pair of stinky socks for x amount and sell them for y amount and still be subject to taxation. Anything is pretty much subject to taxation unless stated otherwise.
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