Topic: 2020 Democrats - page 5. (Read 12657 times)

I'm not sure we even have a disagreement.

I'm good with death as determined by the autopsy. Sometimes a second opinion is required or requested. Sometimes there are uncertainties.

I don't care about any "preferred narrative."

Sure, one cannot dismiss anything he said. But the evidence from the ME is anatomical. It is what it is.  If there is no evidence there of a strangulation, there is nothing more to say. That means there is no evidence of such a thing.

https://www.strangulationtraininginstitute.com/signs-and-symptoms-of-strangulation/

Oh, by the way...

https://thepostmillennial.com/breaking-trump-supporter-shot-dead-portland

Symptoms leading to a cardiac arrest may include chest pains and shortness of breath. Sure Floyd wasn't able to diagnose himself perfectly and called it how he felt it ("I can't breathe") but it's quite ridiculous to call it meaningless. Flailing and screaming in these circumstances is not surprising and I'm sure all this will be looked at during the trial, including what effect the restraint had on it. Dismissing anything he said or did outright because Floyd was a "criminal" (suspect really at that point... suspected of passing a fake note) is wrong.

When someone says they can't breath they don't literally mean 'I can not draw any air into my lungs.  They mean it's harder to breath than normal.[/quote]





I'm thinking you haven't actually watched any of the raw footage of the 10 minutes.  Please do it. Try to watch the whole thing and think about the way you would feel if that was one of the people in your life that you cared about even though they make bad choices.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn2idiz2GEI&bpctr=1598769408

It's equally crazy how I've debunked your "I can't breathe" nonsense about 10 times yet you keep repeating it as if it holds any weight. Floyd screeching he couldn't breathe before he even went to the ground makes his words meaningless. We have the video and the autopsy. He was screaming at the top of his lungs for 6 minutes and lifting his head up numerous times. He could breathe.

But setting the video aside, I wish we had an autopsy report that would examine the neck tissue of George Floyd. If only.

It's like we live in different universes or something, I'm not arguing in bad faith or trolling.  It really is crazy to me that anyone could think there isn't any evidence that Flloyd died because the cop kneeled on his neck for so long.

Your reluctance is palpable here when you can't even cite the single piece of evidence that would validate your entire argument and essentially end the conversation.

To answer the question I asked you -- there isn't evidence of asphyxiation or strangulation which is why you are failing miserably at providing it. The body cam video/transcripts aren't going to give you evidence of asphyxiation/strangulation. They don't put into context how much force Chauvin's knee had on George Floyd. Add this to the fact that Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe before even being placed on the ground, the transcripts are thrown out the window. You know all this too because you're a whole lot smarter than the arguments you're putting forward so I'm not sure why I bother.


Read here -


https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

Dr. Baden did not even have the body when he concluded mechanical asphyxiation. 2nd autopsies means the body comes in with major organs missing and no toxicology report. He was dead wrong in the Michael Brown case, he was dead wrong in the Eric Garner case. Low and behold, both officers in both cases were cleared of charges. He has a 0/2 record. Pretty sure he did the autopsy report on Epstein too and suggested that his death was murder. He's a celebrity quack doctor that comes out of the wood works every now and then for high profile cases to politicize things.

When you cite a charging document that's written as a representation of the autopsy report, that isn't as credible as the autopsy report itself. If you claim he couldn't breathe and was either choked or asphyxiated, you should be able to point to the direct line in the autopsy report that suggests this because if that was the case, it'd be clearly stated.

You can keep asking and the answer won't change.  The evidence is the footage, transcripts and medical reports that we've been discussing.

Are you really arguing that because I believe that the other officers shouldn't be charged and were means that it's illogical to believe the officer who had his knee on Flloyds neck for 8 minutes while he screamed and died does?

Do you really think that the way the other officers pressed on Flloyds chest is the same as being on top of him with your knee on his neck for 8 minutes while he screams and dies?


If you think "Cadriopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression" isn't the cause of death, even though it's at the top of the report and their official public statement says 'cause of death: Cadriopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression', then I don't know what to tell you. 

Obviously I could show you the second medical examiners report that has the cause of death as asphyxiation, but you've already decided to just ignore that one.

You're talking about your opinion on whether or not the cop did something wrong.  We have no way of knowing for sure what a jury would decide, and even then, it's not like a jury verdict would change either of our opinions on the situation.

Gross. That's really what it comes down to, those who think it doesn't matter what the guy said and those that do. 

Empathy is not a weakness.

What evidence do you have the officers were willfully attempting to hurt/kill Floyd? You know the other officers were George Floyd pressing down on his thoracic cavity right? Presumably making it hard to breathe, why shouldn't they be charged? Don't you see holes in the logic here?


I'm talking about a conviction. Any brain dead AG can slap on charges in response to violent riots. A corrupt DA can also slap on charges that are baseless -- see the Rayshard Brooks shooting for an example of that.

Point me to the evidence in the autopsy report that suggests Floyd died of strangulation or asphyxiation. It doesn't matter what Floyd said. Criminals say a lot of things while being arrested, that doesn't mean cops pack up their things and go home when a criminal says "get off me". Floyd was saying he couldn't breathe before being placed on the ground and did not die from asphyxiation/strangulation. He was yelling at the top of his lungs for 6 minutes straight and lifting his head up numerous times. He could breathe. If he did die of strangulation of asphyxiation, feel free to quote the evidence from the ME's autopsy report.

And just to point out, Floyd was resisting the entire time which you seem to have a tough time acknowledging. His "offerings" don't mean anything. 

"He explained he wasn't trying to resist arrest, just getting into the back of the car." -- Ahh yes just like all the other criminals that don't say things contrary to what is actually going on. Just like they say "I'm not reaching for a gun" as they pull a glock out of their waistband and fire it at police. Do you not understand the concept that criminals will say and do anything to avoid being placed under arrest? The guy was tweaking on meth/fentanyl, so whatever he says isn't going to carry much weight any ways.



That's the press report that's made in conjugation with the DA's office (if I understand correctly) aka not the autopsy report. Maybe the 3rd time I've asked at this point -- show me the evidence of strangulation/asphyxiation from the ME's autopsy report. Perhaps looking at the body examination section under "neck" and reading very plainly what it states there would be helpful.




I don't think it was all that apparent Floyd needed EMS when he was sitting on the side walk. The first indication the officers get that Floyd's under the influence of drugs is when one of the officers points out that he's foaming at the mouth. When he was being taken to the car, that's when things went to shit.

They called EMS, not necessarily ignoring Floyd. If you're dealing with an ExDS case, the standard operating procedures is generally to fully restrain them until EMS arrives on scene to pump the person with sedatives.

In hindsight, Floyd should have been put in the recovery position after he stopped responding but EMS arrive shortly on scene after Floyd stopped responding regardless. I also don't think any of the officer's knew Floyd had died. Tou Thou claimed he didn't during his interview with investigators.

I haven't seen anyone claim that cops should never apply pressure to someones neck to restrain them.  


The reason the cop is charged with murder is because he kept his knee on Flloyds neck for 8 minutes while Flloyd said he couldn't breath and then stopped breathing after:
He explained he wasn't trying to resist arrest, just getting into the back of the car.
He offered to get on his knees.
He offered to lay on the ground.
He didn't try to run away.
He didn't try to hurt anyone.
He didn't have any weapons.






In order to support your argument, you need to completely ignore one medical examiners report, ignore the footage of the cop killing him (but bring attention to the footage of Flloyd refusing to get in the back of the car), and pretend like the other  medical reports cause of death is 'just the case title'.  Think about it.

So was there a legitimate medical emergency or not? And what exactly should have he done if that was the case?

If we use Floyd's behaviour to judge his medical condition I'd say the ambulance should have been called when he was sitting on the sidewalk near his car. Except that at no point during the whole altercation did the police officers show any real concern about his condition. "Takes a lot of oxygen to talk" or something like that was one of the remarks. Seems quite callous now to try to get off murder charges by blaming Floyd's health when the dude was complaining and they ignored him.

As soon as officer Lane approached the driver's side door, Floyd was immediately reaching around everywhere, and was doing so frantically. He refused multiple times to put his hands on the wheel so no, police are not going to talk to him like he's a child. Yes, they will raise their voice, and yes, they will draw their firearm. When police stop you, the #1 rule is to not reach around and put your hands on the wheel. This shit is taught to 16 year old's in driver's ed.


He was resisting the entire time and flapping around like a fish when they tried to put him in the patrol car and I'm not sure how I can put this into words when the video tape is out there. He was claiming he couldn't breathe before being restrained on the ground as well. Criminals tend to say and do anything to avoid arrest so if you have a legitimate medical emergency and can't breathe, fighting with police isn't your answer.

He didn't flee because he couldn't even if he wanted to. He was handcuffed and then restrained. That doesn't mean he didn't resist from the moment the stop initiated. In fact, it took two police officers just to get the cuffs on.

If you watch the video closely, when Floyd was put on the ground he began kicking his legs around which is why he was put in a 3 point restraint because controlling a person that's 6'4 and 233 pounds tends to be difficult, believe it or not. MPD policy specifically advises for this sort of restraint when dealing with excited delirium cases.

I assume you watched all the relevant videos. They were yelling at him from the get go. Put your fucking hands on the wheel! Floyd is complying while begging not to shoot him. Stop resisting! while he doesn't seem to be resisting and says "I'm not resisting". At no point is he attempting to flee, he's handcuffed all the time, seems to be not feeling well, and even after the failed attempt to put him in the police car he's just asking to be put on the ground but instead gets a knee to his neck. If you didn't know it was about a counterfeit bill you'd think they were apprehending a murderer.

Did you see anything else? What in that whole altercation made him deserve this kind of restraint?

BTW towards the end there another officer asks if they should roll him on his side and Chauvin (I assume) says nah.

Well you're right, George Floyd did not deserve to be killed for a counterfeit bill, but we aren't talking about an officer involved shooting which is why I think the question that is most important to ask is whether or not Floyd deserved to be restrained because it was the restraint that resulted in death combined with his drug use and underlying health conditions, not specifically the knee on the back of Floyd's neck.

So his homicide would be justified not in the sense that he deserved to get killed, but in the sense that he deserved to be put in restraint after numerous peaceful attempts of officers trying to get Floyd in the patrol car. I'm not sure how you can hold police responsible for someone having a heart attack.

Come on.

Me: "2 + ? = 4"
You: "That's the wrong question to ask. We need to replace 4 with 5".

If I wanted to ask a different question I would. If you don't have an answer to my question that's fine too. I was asking what justifies Floyd's homicide. Seems quite straightforward.

Here is what I think doesn't justify it: counterfeit bill (IIRC that's what he was being arrested for, right?).


Yes, he was talking and moving while he was still alive, how is that surprising? If you could point to the exact moments in the videos (security camera footage / phone videos / body cam) when Floyd was "trying to find a way to escape the situation" or "prepared to flee" that'd be great.

Malice means with ill will and there is no evidence that the officers were willfully trying to harm Floyd.  


Full restraint, including neck restraint, is common when dealing with people with delirious drug induced episodes. And if you watch the full body cam video, they only placed Floyd in full restraint, including neck control, after he was flapping around like a fish taking 3 grown ass men to put him in a patrol car which ultimately failed. He was also kicking his legs throughout the entire commotion, and Floyd is 6'4 233 pounds. MPD policy does allow neck restraint in these sorts of situations.



The "cause of death" you're referring to is the "case title" of the autopsy report which explain the circumstances surrounding the death, not necessarily the cause of death.

How do I know this? Because you can read the actual examination of the neck that the Dr. found -

Zero evidence of strangulation, or asphyxiation. Also, the video shows Floyd screaming at the top of his lungs for 6 minutes and lifting his head up numerous times. He could breathe. If we're talking about video -- off note, a bystander was also saying to Floyd that he couldn't win and that we was "going to die of a heart attack".

And the "independent" autopsy report was not independent for various reasons. If you'd truly like to know why I can explain it but just take my word on the fact that Dr. Baden's "independent" autopsy report will be thrown in the garbage for the trial.

Malice intent doesn't mean willfully trying to kill.  It just means acting with malice.  None of the officers are being accused of intentionally trying to kill Flloyd.


It's about the way he was restrained, not whether or not restraining him at all was justified.



It still looks like the knee on his neck was the primary reason he died 6 or 7 minutes after it was put there.

Here's what we know regarding whether strangulation or asphyxiation happened:

Minnesota ME:
Preliminary report: no signs of strangulation or asphyxiation
Actual report:
 cause of death: Cadriopulmonary arrest complicating law enforcement subdual, restraint, and neck compression.  
 manner of death: Homicide

Independent ME:
cause of death: mechanical asphyxiation.
manner of death: homicide

Video Footage
Cop on top of Floyd with his knee on his neck.  Floyd begging for his life, saying he was going to die.  Bystanders pleading with Cop to get off him.  Cop stays on his neck for 8 minutes.

That's the wrong question to ask. The question to ask is what's the justification for restraining Floyd. The police officers involved can't control that Floyd had underlying conditions or that he took drugs which contributed to his heart stopping when he was being restrained. You might be quick to say that Chauvin had control over his knee on the back of Floyd's neck, but I'll repeat it again, that isn't what directly caused death. The ME's report found no physical evidence of strangulation or asphyxiation.

If you want a more simplistic version of how this case boils down, if someone takes meth, cocaine, and downs it with half a liter of vodka who then gets in a fight with police and is restrained causing their heart rate to rocket and resulting in cardiac arrest, who's at fault in this "homicide"? The answer boils down to whether or not it was justified in putting the individual in restrained because that is what "triggered" the death. That doesn't mean it was the fault of police officers directly for killing someone that was high on drugs. There's precedent for this type of legal case. Death of Eric Garner was similar if you want to research some of the circumstances in that case. Long story short, the officer in that case was cleared of charges.

I think you're missing the point, regardless of if he could or couldn't breathe he was still able to talk and behave erratically. If a suspect is resisting arrest, acting frantically, etc, the officer will likely assume they're trying to find a way to escape the situation. If Floyd said he couldn't breathe but was clearly able to continue talking and moving around for several minutes, why would the officers believe him when he continued to say he couldn't breathe after he was restrained? Maybe the first few times they believed him, but after it was evident that he was still breathing they stopped listening to him and treated the situation as if he were prepared to flee.

I know what murder and homicide is. Given that Floyd didn't shoot at the police - what's the justification for his homicide?