Topic: 22 Messages From Creationists To People Who Believe In Evolution - page 6. (Read 18771 times)

Who started most of the hospitals?  Who has miraculously come down and healed people of their sicknesses?  God is behind the compassion and care of humanity.  I don't see atheists starting hospitals and praying for the sick do you?  I have seen God heal people of cancer (two people personally that I have prayed for.  One with stage 3 lung cancer and one with stage 4 pancreatic cancer)  Both were not expected to live.  God still can still do miracles when we humble ourselves and pray.  The question I still have is why He chooses to sometimes and why He chooses not to.  But He is God and I am not. He has a plan bigger than what I understand and part of the process is trusting Him even when it doesn't make sense to me.  

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Our world is in a "fallen" state.  At what point is Satan to blame, or just the fact that the world is now filled with diseases because of the natural occurrence of such things is debatable, of course.  Why God allows suffering is an ongoing discussion.  But every good and perfect gift comes from God.  God is Love.  God is Good.  If we understand His true nature we can see the world for what it is and put blame where it is due.  And God is all powerful but for whatever reason He is allowing us to live in this fallen state, I believe because He wants to see who will choose Him based on our own free-will.  He could force us all to serve Him and submit but then how would He really know who loves Him or not?  

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

No, it's a sad fact that comes with the acceptance that this world was not created for us. I don't like this, but that I don't like something doesn't mean it's not true.

Also with the acceptance that no catastrophe, sickness or any sad thing was inflicted on us by some higher power comes also the conclusion that it is up to us and within our power to fight and change all of this (which f.E. medicine proofs every day). I find this much more appealing than the thought these things where inflicted as punishment or whatever and we just have to endure them.

Wait, I though there was only one god? Satan is a fallen angel, but now he can mess with the cells of god's creation? Why doesn't satan give us all cancer? Especially Christians. Cancer exists because of faulty cells. Blaming satan for this shit is such a cop out. God is all powerful yet can't even get rid of satan? By the way, Jesus and Satan and their struggles are just metaphors.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

You assume that information, or complexity, can not emerge naturally from a basic set of natural laws without a supreme being (the Sender) artificially inserting it.

As a counterpoint, I present Conway's Game of Life (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Game_of_Life). The Game of Life is a very basic "game" that consists of a 2-dimensional grid of cells that are either dead or alive (white or black, off or on, however you want to phrase it). There are 4 simple rules that specify how the status of a cell changes in the next step of the game. These rules are so simple that an 8 year old kid could take an initial state and evolve (not using the biological notion here) the game to subsequent steps. Of course, doing this manually is a slow process, but the Game of Life can be easily implemented on a computer.

What do we see when we take these very simple rules and some initial state and let things play out? Depending on the initial state, very complex patterns can emerge. From cyclic sequences with a period of thousands of steps to practically stationary structures that continuously produce new elements that are "shot" across the field. It is even possible for Game of Life to simulate itself, that is, many small cells make up much larger structures that operate on the same rules as the small cells, but on a much slower time scale. The system is also Turing-complete, which means that any mathematical function that can be computed with traditional computation methods can also simulated within the Game of Life.

The Game of Life is an impressive example of how from a very restrictive set of rules (2D-grid, discrete timesteps, only 2 possible states for each basic element) incredibly complex structures can emerge. Given what is already possible within Game of Life, it makes one wonder what emergent complexity is possible in universe with (at least) 3 spatial dimensions, continuous time (probably) and many more basic elements and possible states. And all of this doesn't require the complexity to be created. It just needs some initial state, a set of rules and a metaphorical flip of the "on" switch. Complexity will emerge on its own.

Sorry.  Someone asked about why God would create us with cancer, sickness etc.  This is my only explanation.  Do you have a better one?  It seems that those that believe in evolution just think this crappy world is all we have though.  Seems a bit hopeless to me.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

Arg, you violated the unspoken "no preaching" agreement.

This exchange is over.

No, the question is where did god come from? According to your logic god can't exist.

Computers and software aren’t made out of DNA and cells that mutate. If a supremely intelligent designer made us our cells wouldn't become cancerous. We wouldn't have little toes that barely work. We wouldn't have hair growing out of our arses. We wouldn't have such shitty eyesight. God is much more complex than us and a computer, yet surprise surprise, he can exist no problem and no questions asked.

But you are forgetting about Sin entering the world. Sin (and Satan) is who should be blamed for cancer, sickness, pain, abuse, suffering and so on.  Sin is like the world's worst computer bug.  The only way to fix this "bug" is to ask the extreme "programmer" for the fix.  He offers a "fix" but it requires us to accept His fix for it, which is accepting that we cannot fix the bug ourselves and we need Him (Jesus) to come and do it for us.

Although God does care about our physical health and well being, He is ultimately much more concerned about our Spiritual well being.  God is eternal.  Our lives are going to end on this earth.  Death was a product of man's choice in the garden of Eden.  It pained Him that we made (and still make) the choices we do.  It is like we keep downloading software with bugs all the time.  God is willing to clean up our computer for us if we ask Him too but it would be better if we worked hard at keeping our software free of those "bugs."  I pray that God will help me live a sinful life.  I don't want to grieve Him, out of love for Him.  Once we truly understand the nature of God our attitude towards Him changes and in response we want to do everything we can to please Him and keep our lives, with His help, as "bug" free as possible.

The point was that evolution is based solely on mass and energy.  Information is not even factored into the equation.  However, information cannot come from just a big bang.  This is not evident in our world.  So the point is that there is a "non-material" element to information.  The question then is "Where did information come from?"  Our DNA has very complex information encoded in it.  That shows a supremely intelligent entity put the code there.  It would be like having a computer with an highly complex design in the software yet we just all think "Wow. It is great how that software just evolved from nowhere."  Why is that not possible?  Software on a computer is much less complex than our DNA.

7. can't stand on it's own.

5. "and cannot originate from material quantities," assumption out of thin air. + "since information also originates from man" biological information (as you call it) doesn't originate from man --> false

6. Information requires mass and/or energy to exist. Without Mass and Energy there is no Information. This point is simply false.

Also the analogy with Hardware and Software may be nice to simplify organic live. But they can't be ultimately used to describe it. That a robot has a chip with software in order to work that needs to be programmed by a programmer is a useless observation to determine if live is "programmed" The robot analogy reveals no clues about any sender.
This is basically just the "Blind Watchmaker" Argument, which watches only the complete end outcome. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more. Take away one part and the construction doesn't work any more, therefore everything that doesn't work without all parts has to be constructed.  But constructions simply are not live. But Rannasha has already answered better.