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Topic: 2MB Pros and Cons - page 6. (Read 9735 times)

legendary
Activity: 1624
Merit: 2481
March 14, 2016, 06:48:14 AM
And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people, what would be the incentive for them to want to validate Bitcoin transactions?

If bitcoin transactions become too expensive for some people, an altcoin will pop up to fill the need.

To be honestly i dont think this would happen.
I cant think of an Altcoin which would be established enough to fill the gap.
Any special altcoin you're thinkin about?
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269
March 14, 2016, 06:47:57 AM
What's worse compete with paid bitcoin shills or with paid spam transactions.
full member
Activity: 221
Merit: 100
March 14, 2016, 06:47:13 AM
And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people

Any evidence of this, or just more FUD? And with the Lightning Network, fees would necessarily be much cheaper than on-chain because there is much less cost (propagation/bandwidth) required. One would of course want to be able to validate the settlement transactions on-chain.

When the block size is not increased to higher value, people will have to compete to have their transactions confirmed. The price will be high.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1521
March 14, 2016, 02:24:24 AM
And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people

Any evidence of this, or just more FUD? And with the Lightning Network, fees would necessarily be much cheaper than on-chain because there is much less cost (propagation/bandwidth) required. One would of course want to be able to validate the settlement transactions on-chain.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 14, 2016, 12:29:54 AM
And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people, what would be the incentive for them to want to validate Bitcoin transactions?

If bitcoin transactions become too expensive for some people, an altcoin will pop up to fill the need.

Yes, indeed.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
March 14, 2016, 12:28:54 AM
And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people, what would be the incentive for them to want to validate Bitcoin transactions?

If bitcoin transactions become too expensive for some people, an altcoin will pop up to fill the need.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 14, 2016, 12:24:04 AM
Some people only have mobile to connect to the internet. No PCs, 3G. Lot of people actually. This way they can validate transactions for themselves. Could just sync for personal transactions and run in listen-only for minimum impact. I think it is great that this is now possible -- kudos to Core.

Well to be honest, I would rather see an effort to get better Internet access and stable electrical power to those people.

Feel free to donate. Cheesy Rolling out fiber optic infrastructure is insanely expensive, one of the reasons why its not very widespread yet. Bitcoin is limited to the private/govt internet infrastructure (one of its weakenesses) so it makes sense to aim to accomomdate high latency/low bandwidth situations, rather than aiming to eventually be ahead of the tech curve. What Id like to see are real scaling solutions for bitcoin that mean you can run a node on a phone AND we can see continued adoption.

What I'd like to know is how much spam can be squeezed out of the system. People say "spam" is subjective but it (and "dust") have pretty specific definitions in bitcoins history -- uneconomic transactions. There is still a lot of dust tx being pushed around (that's why the threshold went up recently to 2730 from 546 satoshis). A fee market should help squeeze some of that traffic out.

We gonna need a fee market sooner than later. Going on 16 million out 21 million coins already mined. That means we are on the tail end. When that reward dwindles, fees need to be there to incentivize miners to secure the system.

And when fees are high enough that they are a days wages for some people, what would be the incentive for them to want to validate Bitcoin transactions? For the two transactions per year they do to put funds on the lightning network?
member
Activity: 115
Merit: 10
March 13, 2016, 11:47:12 PM
OP was banned today. So I suppose we shouldn't expect any updates for a while.

Decentralization at work. If you can snuff out all opposing viewpoints... you have uncontentious consensus! Next, mewn!
newbie
Activity: 38
Merit: 0
March 13, 2016, 11:46:41 PM
Some people only have mobile to connect to the internet. No PCs, 3G. Lot of people actually. This way they can validate transactions for themselves. Could just sync for personal transactions and run in listen-only for minimum impact. I think it is great that this is now possible -- kudos to Core.

Well to be honest, I would rather see an effort to get better Internet access and stable electrical power to those people.

Feel free to donate. Cheesy Rolling out fiber optic infrastructure is insanely expensive, one of the reasons why its not very widespread yet. Bitcoin is limited to the private/govt internet infrastructure (one of its weakenesses) so it makes sense to aim to accomomdate high latency/low bandwidth situations, rather than aiming to eventually be ahead of the tech curve. What Id like to see are real scaling solutions for bitcoin that mean you can run a node on a phone AND we can see continued adoption.

What I'd like to know is how much spam can be squeezed out of the system. People say "spam" is subjective but it (and "dust") have pretty specific definitions in bitcoins history -- uneconomic transactions. There is still a lot of dust tx being pushed around (that's why the threshold went up recently to 2730 from 546 satoshis). A fee market should help squeeze some of that traffic out.

We gonna need a fee market sooner than later. Going on 16 million out 21 million coins already mined. That means we are on the tail end. When that reward dwindles, fees need to be there to incentivize miners to secure the system.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
March 13, 2016, 11:04:39 PM
Maybe cell phones can be adopted as node (just a thought)....

With wallet pruning it can get down to 2gb which makes it possible. As long as it's still possible to sync on 3G or 4G. Not sure it's really possible to run a full-time node that way though, maybe just to run your own wallet. But maybe.

The R-Pi is basically a cellphone but missing some of the radio stuff. I'm not sure why you would want to do things that way though. It's going to be a battery killer.

There's no reason not to run a full node with proper hardware and a low-cost network connection and access the wallet using RPC calls if you want to be using your own node.

Some people only have mobile to connect to the internet. No PCs, 3G. Lot of people actually. This way they can validate transactions for themselves. Could just sync for personal transactions and run in listen-only for minimum impact. I think it is great that this is now possible -- kudos to Core.

Well to be honest, I would rather see an effort to get better Internet access and stable electrical power to those people.

The next Satoshi could be a young girl living in poverty in Chad, maybe if she had Internet access she could have a future we all benefit from instead of growing up to do manual labor.

Yes let us try to keep the blocks small, but lets treat the disease and not just accommodate the symptom.
member
Activity: 177
Merit: 11
March 13, 2016, 10:57:03 PM
Maybe cell phones can be adopted as node (just a thought)....

With wallet pruning it can get down to 2gb which makes it possible. As long as it's still possible to sync on 3G or 4G. Not sure it's really possible to run a full-time node that way though, maybe just to run your own wallet. But maybe.

The R-Pi is basically a cellphone but missing some of the radio stuff. I'm not sure why you would want to do things that way though. It's going to be a battery killer.

There's no reason not to run a full node with proper hardware and a low-cost network connection and access the wallet using RPC calls if you want to be using your own node.

Some people only have mobile to connect to the internet. No PCs, 3G. Lot of people actually. This way they can validate transactions for themselves. Could just sync for personal transactions and run in listen-only for minimum impact. I think it is great that this is now possible -- kudos to Core.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
March 13, 2016, 10:54:36 PM
I believe in the original vision of bitcoin, ie "being your own bank."

Exactly
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 13, 2016, 10:53:37 PM
Maybe cell phones can be adopted as node (just a thought)....

With wallet pruning it can get down to 2gb which makes it possible. As long as it's still possible to sync on 3G or 4G. Not sure it's really possible to run a full-time node that way though, maybe just to run your own wallet. But maybe.

The R-Pi is basically a cellphone but missing some of the radio stuff. I'm not sure why you would want to do things that way though. It's going to be a battery killer.

There's no reason not to run a full node with proper hardware and a low-cost network connection and access the wallet using RPC calls if you want to be using your own node.
sr. member
Activity: 454
Merit: 251
March 13, 2016, 10:49:46 PM
Maybe cell phones can be adopted as node (just a thought)....

With wallet pruning it can get down to 2gb which makes it possible. As long as it's still possible to sync on 3G or 4G. Not sure it's really possible to run a full-time node that way though, maybe just to run your own wallet. But maybe.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 13, 2016, 10:35:19 PM
It's not the idea of 2MB that poeple are obsessed about, it's about cores vision for bitcoin's future. not everyone agrees we should consider the specs of a 60$ raspberry pi when designing the world's financial settlement layer.

So what is your vision? I remember when I got on board in early 2013, there was so much talk of "the unbanked." Have people given up on that? With 0.12 in pruned mode (and with 3g/4g bandwidth limitations in mind), people in Africa could conceivably actually validate their own transactions now (instead of depending on Bitpesa).

A lot of the world has pretty shitty internet. Is bitcoin a global currency? Or coffee money for Starbucks customers in US/Europe?

I believe in the original vision of bitcoin, ie "being your own bank." And I don't think I should have to run an SPV node (which trusts anyone it connects to) in order to do that.

You'll have to wait. Adam has been silenced banned.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 2267
1RichyTrEwPYjZSeAYxeiFBNnKC9UjC5k
March 13, 2016, 10:33:27 PM
Well technically yes, but still no. If the fees drop by half, and the amount of empty block space is 50% then such attacks would be as expensive as they are now. There are just a lot of variables and factors to consider.
Quote

Nope. If a 1MB block is 95% full, you just have to pay for 50k of transactions. If that was a 2MB block size limit, you have to pay for 1050k of transactions, 21 times as much.

Artificially restricting resources makes it easier to create attacks.
hero member
Activity: 697
Merit: 520
March 13, 2016, 09:27:58 PM
It's not the idea of 2MB that poeple are obsessed about, it's about cores vision for bitcoin's future. not everyone agrees we should consider the specs of a 60$ raspberry pi when designing the world's financial settlement layer.

So what is your vision? I remember when I got on board in early 2013, there was so much talk of "the unbanked." Have people given up on that? With 0.12 in pruned mode (and with 3g/4g bandwidth limitations in mind), people in Africa could conceivably actually validate their own transactions now (instead of depending on Bitpesa).

A lot of the world has pretty shitty internet. Is bitcoin a global currency? Or coffee money for Starbucks customers in US/Europe?

I believe in the original vision of bitcoin, ie "being your own bank." And I don't think I should have to run an SPV node (which trusts anyone it connects to) in order to do that.
Vin
legendary
Activity: 1166
Merit: 1015
March 13, 2016, 05:46:46 PM
Same
legendary
Activity: 2856
Merit: 1520
Bitcoin Legal Tender Countries: 2 of 206
March 13, 2016, 03:13:40 PM
voted.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
March 13, 2016, 10:04:31 AM
Pro: Not bumping limit to 2MB could cause a fork.

it's no secret poeple want 2MB, we've seen open letters signed by many many top bitcoin businesses stating they want bigger blocks, we've also see the same thing coming from the a huge % of hashrate, it's not unreasonable to assume, inaction on this issue will cause a fork.
I really doubt it. People who are really working for the best of Bitcoin would never risk this.
but.... they are risking it, right now.

gavin left core and created XT and now helping Classic and Unlimited, in an attempt at forking bitcoin.
did you miss the part when like 20 of the top bitcoin businesses sign a document that explained why they wanted bigger blocks?
the bitcoin market has drop several times because this kind of fork was seen as a credible threat.

sure this it's unlikely bitcoin will fork over this in the near future, but should core refuse to comply with >80% of hashing power, that's not only risking it, thats asking for it.

What is happening is certain people want to take over development. The TX capacity of Bitcoin is what they saw as a way to socially engineer the public into believing there is a problem the core developers are not addressing.
Exactly. People are obsessed with the 2 MB block size limit.

Yes poeple are "obsessed", many are willing to fork over this issue.

Hmm, could also be the fork had already happened when blockstream came into the game and we already are on BSC = Blockstreamcoins ....

So its the try to get old BTC back

you know, it's sad how true this rings.

the project has been lead with a certain vision of how it would scale, that vision had not changed up until they took over the project.

I wish that finally the gentlemen get together and formulate a compromise, shake hands and work on true BTC together. It does not seam fully impossible to me!

KINDERGARDEN
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