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Topic: 40 minute BTC block time - No big deal - page 3. (Read 6113 times)

legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
July 02, 2014, 09:17:00 PM
#60
This use of "51%" for everything under the sun is staring to really get on my nerves.  51% has nothing to do with this - at all.

What if they had only 47, 48, 49 or 50% and decided to mine only empty blocks.  SAME DAMN THING:  on average about half the blocks would contain no transactions.

legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
July 02, 2014, 09:03:20 PM
#59
There are free market dynamics but its
not really a "free market" in the traditional sense.

The block rewards mean the miners
get paid regardless of the transaction fees, which
are a small part right now.  Also, if a
miner starts behaving badly, consumers
cannot choose to take their business elsewhere,
as you cannot choose which miners you want
to allow to include your transaction.  

While it is true that by excluding
transactions, a miner makes less money and
thereby becomes less competitive, it could
be done maliciously without a serious impact
on the bottom line, and certainly would be
a fatal problem if a miner ever got a 51%
monopoly.

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
July 02, 2014, 07:55:14 PM
#58
I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin. 

Free markets aren't flaws.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
July 02, 2014, 05:55:11 PM
#57
Seems a bit of stretch to try to apply political motivations to a technical issue.
It's also a stretch to propose that it's even technically possible at all to force miners to include transactions into blocks.

The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.

I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin. 
There are indeed a large number of people who believe that the lack of ability to force other people to do thing is a flaw.

The reason Bitcoin is prospering so well is because they are wrong.

Having rules in a protocol is not really the same as 'forcing' people to do something. Seems a bit of stretch to try to apply political motivations to a technical issue.
This is not just a technical issue.  Try to propose a rule to force the miners to accept transactions.  What do you suggest?  They must include all transactions that pay a minimum fee set by???  You?  OR, they must include all transactions even if free?  Then nobody would pay a fee - or is that what you want?  They must include all transaction in the queue no mater how many?  They must include the 10 oldest?  Try it and you will find it is not a just a technical issue.

Freedom, with an economic incentive, works and is really the only solution I see.  Perhaps you are smarter than me and can come up with a way to codify your suggestion.

I didn't mean to imply that there was necessarily an issue with with the way transactions are handled by miners. I thought the original comment was conflating some sort of moral principle with an issue that's a technical one. Forcing people to do things or preventing them from doing things is the whole point of a protocol.
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
July 02, 2014, 04:43:15 PM
#56
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.

I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin.  
There are indeed a large number of people who believe that the lack of ability to force other people to do thing is a flaw.

The reason Bitcoin is prospering so well is because they are wrong.

Having rules in a protocol is not really the same as 'forcing' people to do something. Seems a bit of stretch to try to apply political motivations to a technical issue.
This is not just a technical issue.  Try to propose a rule to force the miners to accept transactions.  What do you suggest?  They must include all transactions that pay a minimum fee set by???  You?  OR, they must include all transactions even if free?  Then nobody would pay a fee - or is that what you want?  They must include all transaction in the queue no mater how many?  They must include the 10 oldest?  Try it and you will find it is not a just a technical issue.

Freedom, with an economic incentive, works and is really the only solution I see.  Perhaps you are smarter than me and can come up with a way to codify your suggestion.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
July 02, 2014, 04:40:47 PM
#55
Seems a bit of stretch to try to apply political motivations to a technical issue.
It's also a stretch to propose that it's even technically possible at all to force miners to include transactions into blocks.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
July 02, 2014, 04:38:13 PM
#54
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.

I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin. 
There are indeed a large number of people who believe that the lack of ability to force other people to do thing is a flaw.

The reason Bitcoin is prospering so well is because they are wrong.

Having rules in a protocol is not really the same as 'forcing' people to do something. Seems a bit of stretch to try to apply political motivations to a technical issue.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
July 02, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
#53
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.

I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin. 
There are indeed a large number of people who believe that the lack of ability to force other people to do thing is a flaw.

The reason Bitcoin is prospering so well is because they are wrong.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
July 02, 2014, 01:54:03 PM
#52
Is this based on prioritizing the transactions by the amount of fee, or is it just that the transactions don't get put in the block in time? Or is it because the block miner is choosing to limit the amount of transactions they want to include in the block on purpose?
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.


Yeah, but I'm curious the exact reason he was getting at about why some transactions won't be confirmed. It sounds like he might be hinting at another reason other than miner choice. The only other thing besides miner choice I can think of is blocksize limit. Which is why I'm wondering if there is something I'm missing.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
July 02, 2014, 01:36:04 PM
#51
Is this based on prioritizing the transactions by the amount of fee, or is it just that the transactions don't get put in the block in time? Or is it because the block miner is choosing to limit the amount of transactions they want to include in the block on purpose?
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.


I think this is one of the flaws of Bitcoin. 
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
July 02, 2014, 11:49:49 AM
#50
Is this based on prioritizing the transactions by the amount of fee, or is it just that the transactions don't get put in the block in time? Or is it because the block miner is choosing to limit the amount of transactions they want to include in the block on purpose?
The miners and the pools are under no obligation to include any transactions.  They can, if they wish, and some pools and miners have n the past, just mine empty blocks.  They can cherry pick which transaction they want to include - that is their right.  They can include only transactions that have a profitable fee and drop all other transactions.  They can, if they feel like it, included a certain number of free transactions.  Luckily for "freeloaders" most of the larger pools will include a certain number of free transactions in each block they mine.
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
July 02, 2014, 06:03:05 AM
#49
i wait for 30 minutes today to get 1 confirmations Sad
the more we have hashing power, more we need to wait for confirmation, is it right?
not good if we use bitcoin for payment if we must wait for long time

No the target time of 10 minutes per block is independent of the amount of hashing power.

And I agree that it's not good to have to wait so long for a confirmation.
Some transactions will not be confirmed in the first block after it is propagated to the network. 

Is this based on prioritizing the transactions by the amount of fee, or is it just that the transactions don't get put in the block in time? Or is it because the block miner is choosing to limit the amount of transactions they want to include in the block on purpose?
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 1038
July 02, 2014, 03:35:28 AM
#48
What about KGW? I know some alts got messed up with poor implementations of it but a solid implementation could make BTC better at hitting the 10 min mark.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Will Bitcoin Rise Again to $60,000?
July 02, 2014, 02:23:58 AM
#47
Pretty interesting, to say the least. It's been a while since I've seen a really large block time, so I think it calls to ask: What could lead to such a long wait?

Me sending a tx.

You just HAD to go and spend your millions of Bitcoin in a single TX.

Haha, indeed. Thanks for making us all others wait, jerk.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
July 02, 2014, 01:11:41 AM
#46
i wait for 30 minutes today to get 1 confirmations Sad
the more we have hashing power, more we need to wait for confirmation, is it right?
not good if we use bitcoin for payment if we must wait for long time

No the target time of 10 minutes per block is independent of the amount of hashing power.

And I agree that it's not good to have to wait so long for a confirmation.
Some transactions will not be confirmed in the first block after it is propagated to the network. 
sr. member
Activity: 490
Merit: 280
July 01, 2014, 01:47:58 PM
#45
i wait for 30 minutes today to get 1 confirmations Sad
the more we have hashing power, more we need to wait for confirmation, is it right?
not good if we use bitcoin for payment if we must wait for long time

No the target time of 10 minutes per block is independent of the amount of hashing power.

And I agree that it's not good to have to wait so long for a confirmation.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 250
July 01, 2014, 01:03:34 PM
#44
hmm i see
so ideally average confirmation time is 10 minutes
and then we see 8 minutes average for now, it will make we need more time to get another confirmation, right?
Since the average confirmation time is less than 10 minutes that means the difficulty is too low. 

So what it means is that the difficulty will keep going up until the average confirmation time is 10 minutes.

Enjoy the shorter 8 minute average confirmation times while you can Wink

Eventually the growth in the hashrate will level off and the average confirmation time will be adjusted to 10 minutes where it should be.
The lower confirmation times mean that the EV of mining is increased above what the difficult would indicate until the difficulty changes again
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
July 01, 2014, 12:45:22 PM
#43
hmm i see
so ideally average confirmation time is 10 minutes
and then we see 8 minutes average for now, it will make we need more time to get another confirmation, right?
Since the average confirmation time is less than 10 minutes that means the difficulty is too low. 

So what it means is that the difficulty will keep going up until the average confirmation time is 10 minutes.

Enjoy the shorter 8 minute average confirmation times while you can Wink

Eventually the growth in the hashrate will level off and the average confirmation time will be adjusted to 10 minutes where it should be.
so the difficulty based on this, i never know it Grin
if avg confirmation time is 8 minutes, the difficulty will increase to adjust avg confirmation time (to 10 minutes)
yeah i enjoy it if i made transaction on right time, i can get 3-4 confirmations easily after few minutes Grin
but if i get wrong time, i need to wait almost 30 minutes Sad
thanks for your explanation
legendary
Activity: 2646
Merit: 1137
All paid signature campaigns should be banned.
July 01, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
#42
hmm i see
so ideally average confirmation time is 10 minutes
and then we see 8 minutes average for now, it will make we need more time to get another confirmation, right?
Since the average confirmation time is less than 10 minutes that means the difficulty is too low. 

So what it means is that the difficulty will keep going up until the average confirmation time is 10 minutes.

Enjoy the shorter 8 minute average confirmation times while you can Wink

Eventually the growth in the hashrate will level off and the average confirmation time will be adjusted to 10 minutes where it should be.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
July 01, 2014, 12:18:29 PM
#41
i wait for 30 minutes today to get 1 confirmations Sad
the more we have hashing power, more we need to wait for confirmation, is it right?
not good if we use bitcoin for payment if we must wait for long time
Actually because the hashrate is going up at a fast rate the average confirmation time is below 10 minutes.  See:

https://blockchain.info/charts/avg-confirmation-time

The average confirmation time is actually about 8 minutes.
hmm i see
so ideally average confirmation time is 10 minutes
and then we see 8 minutes average for now, it will make we need more time to get another confirmation, right?
308764 - <1 minute
308765 - <1 minute
308766 - 9 minutes
308767 - 4 minutes
308768 - more time to wait?
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