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Topic: $5000+ bitcoin? - page 4. (Read 15432 times)

hero member
Activity: 501
Merit: 500
June 22, 2013, 04:15:32 PM
#95
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.

um what scale ability issues? Its just moving a decimal point for price. I think it will go the other way, price will go up which will drive solutions, because there is more money on offer. Also processing fees will drop as the price goes up because btc it worth more.

finally block size can be increased

As of now, the maximum block size that's going to be relayed by Bitcoin nodes is 1MB, which corresponds to about 7 transactions per second. If there's demand for more than that, fees will start to limit who gets to use the blockchain.

If Bitcoin's popularity grows tenfold, we'll actually hit the limit and see its consequences. If bitcoin is deemed useful despite this restriction, expect to see a minimum fee for ANY TRANSACTION of several dollars.

Currently there is no consensus among developers on whether this restriction will EVER be lifted.

I agree scalability is an issue, but its mainly an issue for bitcoin as a medium of exchange, if people mainly want to use bitcoin as a store of value, you don't need that many transactions.  Regardless, resolving scalability problems would obviously have a positive impact on price.

A hundred million people using Bitcoin as a savings plan and making each one monthly transaction would mean a transaction rate of 38 tps. With the 1M limit we can sustain only some 18 million such savers.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
June 22, 2013, 04:05:36 PM
#94
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.

um what scale ability issues? Its just moving a decimal point for price. I think it will go the other way, price will go up which will drive solutions, because there is more money on offer. Also processing fees will drop as the price goes up because btc it worth more.

finally block size can be increased

As of now, the maximum block size that's going to be relayed by Bitcoin nodes is 1MB, which corresponds to about 7 transactions per second. If there's demand for more than that, fees will start to limit who gets to use the blockchain.

If Bitcoin's popularity grows tenfold, we'll actually hit the limit and see its consequences. If bitcoin is deemed useful despite this restriction, expect to see a minimum fee for ANY TRANSACTION of several dollars.

Currently there is no consensus among developers on whether this restriction will EVER be lifted.

Can you explain why a minimum transaction fee of the equivalent of several dollars would be necessary given a tenfold increase in transaction volume and why there would be no possible alternative? Please be as technical as possible.
legendary
Activity: 1638
Merit: 1001
₪``Campaign Manager´´₪
June 22, 2013, 02:36:02 PM
#93
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.

um what scale ability issues? Its just moving a decimal point for price. I think it will go the other way, price will go up which will drive solutions, because there is more money on offer. Also processing fees will drop as the price goes up because btc it worth more.

finally block size can be increased

As of now, the maximum block size that's going to be relayed by Bitcoin nodes is 1MB, which corresponds to about 7 transactions per second. If there's demand for more than that, fees will start to limit who gets to use the blockchain.

If Bitcoin's popularity grows tenfold, we'll actually hit the limit and see its consequences. If bitcoin is deemed useful despite this restriction, expect to see a minimum fee for ANY TRANSACTION of several dollars.

Currently there is no consensus among developers on whether this restriction will EVER be lifted.

I agree scalability is an issue, but its mainly an issue for bitcoin as a medium of exchange, if people mainly want to use bitcoin as a store of value, you don't need that many transactions.  Regardless, resolving scalability problems would obviously have a positive impact on price.
hero member
Activity: 501
Merit: 500
June 22, 2013, 02:12:19 PM
#92
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.

um what scale ability issues? Its just moving a decimal point for price. I think it will go the other way, price will go up which will drive solutions, because there is more money on offer. Also processing fees will drop as the price goes up because btc it worth more.

finally block size can be increased

As of now, the maximum block size that's going to be relayed by Bitcoin nodes is 1MB, which corresponds to about 7 transactions per second. If there's demand for more than that, fees will start to limit who gets to use the blockchain.

If Bitcoin's popularity grows tenfold, we'll actually hit the limit and see its consequences. If bitcoin is deemed useful despite this restriction, expect to see a minimum fee for ANY TRANSACTION of several dollars.

Currently there is no consensus among developers on whether this restriction will EVER be lifted.
legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1023
June 22, 2013, 01:21:48 PM
#91
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.

um what scale ability issues? Its just moving a decimal point for price. I think it will go the other way, price will go up which will drive solutions, because there is more money on offer. Also processing fees will drop as the price goes up because btc it worth more.

finally block size can be increased
hero member
Activity: 501
Merit: 500
June 22, 2013, 12:51:03 PM
#90
I'm pretty much certain that the scalability issues can't be solved soon enough for the exponential trendlines to hold. My old back-of-the-envelope calculation suggested a max price of $400/BTC in the long term, unless the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE issue is solved. Of course it can momentarily shoot to 10 times that.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 254
June 20, 2013, 12:21:06 PM
#89
I hope this is correct. Smiley  I am patient enough to wait until 2016, 2017 or 2018.  Maybe some others are not though?  I guess there are reasons why some need to sell earlier than that.

Well, if he bough enough BTC he could sell/spend them a bit in 2015, a bit in 2016, a bit in 2017 and by 2018 he will have enough to need help to spend them.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
June 20, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
#88
Good job jubalix.

Ideally, the lowest line bring us to 10K in April 2016, 100K in May 2017 and 1 M$ in July 2018.
The "median" line to 10K in June 2016 and 100K in July 2017 and 1 M in August 2017.





I hope this is correct. Smiley  I am patient enough to wait until 2016, 2017 or 2018.  Maybe some others are not though?  I guess there are reasons why some need to sell earlier than that.
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 2106
June 20, 2013, 05:45:49 AM
#87
Good job jubalix.

Ideally, the lowest line bring us to 10K in April 2016, 100K in May 2017 and 1 M$ in July 2017.
The "median" line to 10K in June 2016 and 100K in July 2017 and 1 M in August 2017.





confirmed.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 254
June 20, 2013, 02:38:47 AM
#86
Good job jubalix.

Ideally, the lowest line bring us to 10K in April 2016, 100K in May 2017 and 1 M$ in July 2018.
The "median" line to 10K in June 2016 and 100K in July 2017 and 1 M in August 2017.



legendary
Activity: 2632
Merit: 1023
June 19, 2013, 07:58:42 PM
#85
here have a graph
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 254
June 19, 2013, 12:28:33 PM
#84
Is there any way to look up the number of BTC that has never been "used"?  I would wonder if there would be a way to find out if those had been potentially lost?  Even knowing the number that had never been used could be interesting for sure.

There are, at least, a couple of millions of BTC never touched.
Someone call them the Satoshi Retirement Stash.

We know, for sure of at least 20.000 BTC lost, some others stolen from some exchange by hackers, but apparently none of these are ever touched.
And they will probably remain untouched for a long time (I suppose until the crime law limitations kick in).

So, we could suppose at least 2 M BTC frozen or lost, probably something more.

I wrote:
"A lot, and they are really a lot, of BTC are stashed away and never touched by anyone.
This imply the real cap of bitcoin is a lot lower. Probably just 2-3 M of BTC are available on the market."

The rest, IMHO, is sleeping in long term addresses or lost.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
June 19, 2013, 11:33:25 AM
#83
I am a strong believer in at least a $5000 BTC, as long as BTC survives (and it has already overcome impressive hurdles as it is).  How long will it take to get there?  Well that is the question isn't it!?

What I have missed in this thread in the calculations is the theory that some of the early BTC has been lost, or will be lost, which in turn will cause the number of BTC divided among the population to be even less, which in turn makes the value go up even more. 

Is there any way to look up the number of BTC that has never been "used"?  I would wonder if there would be a way to find out if those had been potentially lost?  Even knowing the number that had never been used could be interesting for sure.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
June 18, 2013, 06:24:00 AM
#82
I believe in Santa, and $1M BTC.

     You are much more likely to see 1 million BTC than Santa... saint nicholas the turkish/anatolian priest died more than 1600 years ago.

He wasn't a Turk, he was a Byzantine Greek. The Turks hadn't even settled there when he died.


   You are correct. I was conflating modern political geography with ethnic and linguistic identity to locate the regional center of the historical Santa's physical remains to make the point that seeing Santa and a bitcoin valued at $1 million are both distinct possibilities.

   If there was something wrong with conflating regional national sovereign boundaries with ethnic and linguistic identity, I'm sure the Turkish Kurds would have taken issue with it by now. Oh...

   And by the way, the Byzantine legacy is a big part of modern Turkey in every sphere of society. Modern Turks are by no means pure blooded descendents of their nomadic Turkish forebears from the Central Asian steppe. Therefore, someone whose genetic material is primarily derived from Byzantine ancestors who today lives in the sovereign territory of Turkey would also be called a Turk.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
June 18, 2013, 04:47:04 AM
#81
I believe in Santa, and $1M BTC.

     You are much more likely to see 1 million BTC than Santa... saint nicholas the turkish/anatolian priest died more than 1600 years ago.

He wasn't a Turk, he was a Byzantine Greek. The Turks hadn't even settled there when he died.
sr. member
Activity: 453
Merit: 254
June 17, 2013, 07:15:48 PM
#80
    Maybe I should leave my Facebook-Analogy here once again:

    Fact: Facebook currently has a market cap of 50 Billion USD and a userbase of 1 Billion users.

    Assumptions:
    • On average every participant in the Bitcoin-Network wants to store 1000 USD of wealth in Bitcoins.
    .....
    Calculation: 50,000 Million USD / 21 Million Bitcoins
    ....
    47,600 USD / BTC.

    Calculation: 21 Million Bitcoins / 1,000 Million Users = 0,021 Bitcoins per User = 1000 USD wealth stored per user

    I think hoping or assuming that Bitcoin might get only 10% of Facebooks userbase (which would yield in about 4,760 USD / BTC, close to what the thread title suggests) is fairly reasonable.


    Your assumptions are prudent:
    1) 1.000$ is a lot and not near enough.  If Bitcoin work and is validated by time (it last), people will want to store more than 1.000$ in BTC, just because it is liquid and not inflatable, easy to use.
    In my case, just to say, 1.000$ per user imply there will be other 20 users with just 500$ in BTC.

    2) on the other side, there are not, just now, 21 M BTC, they are 11 M. There will be 16 M BTC in the next 4 years (2017) and 20 M BTC by 2021.
    For now, we play with what we have

    3) A lot, and they are really a lot, of BTC are stashed away and never touched by anyone.
    This imply the real cap of bitcoin is a lot lower. Probably just 2-3 M of BTC are available on the market.
    This imply, IMHO, if BTC is adopted by a large chunk of people, it can skyrocket again (and again and again).

    sr. member
    Activity: 350
    Merit: 251
    Dolphie Selfie
    June 17, 2013, 11:52:51 AM
    #79
    Maybe I should leave my Facebook-Analogy here once again:

    Fact: Facebook currently has a market cap of 50 Billion USD and a userbase of 1 Billion users.

    Assumptions:
    • Bitcoin does not have any serious flaws, which allow stealing of coins without knowledge of the private key.
    • Bitcoin won't be banned by governments before a critical mass is hit (whatever the critical mass may be).
    • Everyone who has the technical means to access Facebook also has the means to use Bitcoin.
    • On average every participant in the Bitcoin-Network wants to store 1000 USD of wealth in Bitcoins.

    So the simple math is:
    a) Facebooks value (as agreement of the stock market) expressed in Bitcoin would yield in ~ 2,400 USD / BTC.

    Calculation: 50,000 Million USD / 21 Million Bitcoins


    b) Facebooks userbase completely using Bitcoin would yield in ~ 47,600 USD / BTC.

    Calculation: 21 Million Bitcoins / 1,000 Million Users = 0,021 Bitcoins per User = 1000 USD wealth stored per user


    I think hoping or assuming that Bitcoin might get only 10% of Facebooks userbase (which would yield in about 4,760 USD / BTC, close to what the thread title suggests) is fairly reasonable.
    Also keep in mind, that Facebook provides the world with a tool to exchange gossip, while Bitcoin provides the world with a tool to transfer wealth.
    hero member
    Activity: 728
    Merit: 500
    June 16, 2013, 10:43:17 PM
    #78
    I believe in Santa, and $1M BTC.

         You are much more likely to see 1 million BTC than Santa... saint nicholas the turkish/anatolian priest died more than 1600 years ago. There are probably 20 churches or so claiming to have chunks of his bones around the mediterranean, as is the case with many figures revered in Christianity. You can visit them while waiting for btc to hit a million. By the time you get back from your trip your meals, plane ticket, bus and taxi fares, hotel bills and souveneirs will have cost $0.12 cents at todays exchange rates.
    member
    Activity: 98
    Merit: 10
    June 16, 2013, 07:29:52 PM
    #77
    member
    Activity: 110
    Merit: 11
    June 16, 2013, 06:18:25 PM
    #76
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