5,000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved - page 2.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: aysg76 on September 05, 2022, 07:26:36 AM

The owners that have lost the keys are actually out of circulation at this time but anytime they remember the password the coins can be back into circulation and increase the supply so there is difference in these terms.As per report there are over 4 million coins lost but actually they have not the password and keys with them.

This is not an accurate statement. There are plenty of reasons that coins might not move for 5 years or more that do not include the owner losing the keys.

Quote from: aysg76 on September 05, 2022, 07:26:36 AM

The actual coins lost are the one's which are send to OP_Return command as they can't be retrieved at all and are out of circulation.

There are actually a few other ways that coins have been provably lost, which I have previously outlined here and here. Still, the number of provably lost coins is in the region of 2,823 BTC, and certainly nowhere near the 4 million that some people speculated.

aysg76

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 04, 2022, 03:17:38 AM

Because some people wrongly assume that any coins which has not moved in 5 or 10 years is "lost" and therefore removed from the supply, and therefore any coins which have been dormant for this long and then "wake up" again are effectively inflating the current supply. This is obviously nonsense, as has been proved many many times in the past. The only coins which can be removed from the supply are those which are provably lost or burnt, and those coins number a few thousand at most.

The owners that have lost the keys are actually out of circulation at this time but anytime they remember the password the coins can be back into circulation and increase the supply so there is difference in these terms.As per report there are over 4 million coins lost but actually they have not the password and keys with them.

The actual coins lost are the one's which are send to OP_Return command as they can't be retrieved at all and are out of circulation.Those who are dormant address can wake up again anytime and move huge amount of bitcoin with them in transactions like you have seen.So this is reality we need to understand.

casinotester0001

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Again another 5000 BTC moved:

Address: 18xGHNrU26w6HSCEL8DD5o1whfiDaYgp6i

txid: 4e51e9c29620f676e49e4a3670be158fa626866c032b46a2a2ee254c861604c6

4/Sep/2022 8:50 PM UTC

virasog

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 04, 2022, 03:17:38 AM

Because some people wrongly assume that any coins which has not moved in 5 or 10 years is "lost" and therefore removed from the supply, and therefore any coins which have been dormant for this long and then "wake up" again are effectively inflating the current supply. This is obviously nonsense, as has been proved many many times in the past. The only coins which can be removed from the supply are those which are provably lost or burnt, and those coins number a few thousand at most.

Even if no coins are lost, still the bitcoin supply is very less and limited and if the demand grows, the price will rise significantly. However, there will be constant loss of bitcoins as people might forget their passphrases and some bitcoin holders might die too without telling their keys to anyone, and a lot of other reasons.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 03, 2022, 07:22:26 PM

I just don't think the US government will allow it to go on forever though. Not for US citizens anyway.

I agree, and the mandatory question right at the top of Form 1040 is just the beginning. No doubt the government will want full self-reporting of every wallet address you control in the future. But the fact remains - if you fail to comply with fiat regulations, then the government can take your fiat out your bank accounts with ease. If you fail to comply with bitcoin regulations, the government can't take anything unless you hand it over to them.

Quote from: noormcs5 on September 03, 2022, 07:58:06 PM

Moving bitcoin could means that bitcoin may have changed hands and that's it. Bitcoin supply hasn't increased due to this, right , wo why getting panic ?

Because some people wrongly assume that any coins which has not moved in 5 or 10 years is "lost" and therefore removed from the supply, and therefore any coins which have been dormant for this long and then "wake up" again are effectively inflating the current supply. This is obviously nonsense, as has been proved many many times in the past. The only coins which can be removed from the supply are those which are provably lost or burnt, and those coins number a few thousand at most.

noormcs5

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on August 30, 2022, 06:39:38 AM

5000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved, maybe 3 More Wallets Wait to Send Bitcoin as they have the same origin ~21000 BTC.

To be very transparent, there is a limited bitcoin supply and even if lot of bitcoins are moved from old addresses, there is nothing to panic about. We do not need to speculate anything. Moving bitcoin could means that bitcoin may have changed hands and that's it. Bitcoin supply hasn't increased due to this, right , wo why getting panic ?

Also i see people getting worried about the Mt gox bitcoin distribution will cause big selling, agree there can be selling pressure for some time but then again bitcoin will move from mt gox weak hands to strong holding hands and total bitcoin supply will remain same. The demand for bitcoin wont be less.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 03, 2022, 04:34:26 AM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

That's how it is supposed to be apparently. The government makes it hard to transfer larger amounts. And you're at the mercy of banks.

This is precisely what bitcoin solves.

It certainly does that. We've seen the government trying to make rules up but nothing to really stop people from transferring large amounts of bitcoin. I just don't think the US government will allow it to go on forever though. Not for US citizens anyway. But that's just an opinion. But they force everyone filing a tax return to answer questions about if they received crypto during the year. I'm sure those reporting requirements will grow more onerous over time such that one day you'll have to answer whether you sent any crypto or whether you own any and then how much of each type of crypto and please list the wallet addresses etc. it will just get worse.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

And don't try and "structure" your transactions because that will be against the law too.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

Because you wouldn't want the government knowing you cashed out some bitcoin.

Quote

Even if you receive fiat directly in to your bank account when trading bitcoin peer to peer, the government just sees a transfer from one private individual to another. It doesn't know that any bitcoin changed hands.

But if the amount of large enough, that will begin an investigation possibly where they try and find out all the details and reasons why this individual is receiving a large amount of cash into their bank account, same as if you walked in and tried to deposit it in person. As far as the bank and government are concerned they don't know where the money came from so they possibly assume the worst, that it comes from illegal things.

We have to remember that at least in the USA, when it comes to matters like these, people CAN BE treated as guilty until proven innocent.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

That's how it is supposed to be apparently. The government makes it hard to transfer larger amounts. And you're at the mercy of banks.

This is precisely what bitcoin solves.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

And don't try and "structure" your transactions because that will be against the law too.

It already is. If you use bitcoin through a centralized exchange, you are already at the mercy of the government.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

Because you wouldn't want the government knowing you cashed out some bitcoin.

Even if you receive fiat directly in to your bank account when trading bitcoin peer to peer, the government just sees a transfer from one private individual to another. It doesn't know that any bitcoin changed hands.

Quote from: DaveF on September 02, 2022, 08:55:50 PM

Only if you are looking to get cash or cash equivalent. One of my clients routinely logs into online banking and sends out 7 figure payments to people.

Doesn't mean it isn't being checked, even if by some automatic algorithm at his bank. And if something flags up, you can guarantee that payment is being put on hold while the bank investigate. This is simply not possible with bitcoin.

CryptoHeadlineNews

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Quote from: DigitalMonk on August 30, 2022, 04:37:22 PM

I can assure you that if he want to move his Bitcoin to another address for security or for selling, he will definitely inform me first with a signed message. Now you are going to say, "who do you think you are ? Are you Satoshi's twin brother ? " Well, I am the only Digital Monk here in the Bitcoin Talk Forum.

Please can you stop joking all the time with your useless threads and post @ Digitalmonk, what do you actually mean by if Satoshi wants to move his Bitcoins he will first have to contact you. Who do you actually think you are? Are you the holder of his wallet password or passphrase? Or on what ground do you think he has to contact you? Because I really think the psychiatrist hospital for monk would have actually been a better place for you than here on this forum.

DaveF

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 01, 2022, 03:40:31 AM

That's all they would need to do. Bring ID to the bank and pay the cashiers check fee. Everything has a fee for sending, even bitcoin.

So I have to go to the bank, prove who I am, have my ID checked, have the cashier produce a check, have it signed, have it countersigned, send it to the other person, they have to take it to their bank, have it checked by their bank, arrange with yet more third parties to actually transfer the funds, the list goes on. That's a lot of third parties who need to agree to the process, any one of which could decide to deny my request.
[/quote]

Only if you are looking to get cash or cash equivalent. One of my clients routinely logs into online banking and sends out 7 figure payments to people.
Needs a 2FA dongle thing and a username & password and can ACH money in 5 minutes and it's in the recipients account later that day. Wire transfers around the world are the same.

If I had it I could do $500k without even calling my bank, I remember laughing when they said that was my limit. I'm just $495k short of that at the moment so I can't really test it, but when my friend sold and then bought a house there were no checks or anything else. All online and both transactions were in the hundreds of thousands.

-Dave

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 02, 2022, 06:08:41 PM

What you gonna do then? Become a law breaker?

Quote

Perhaps.

well then you would be the exception rather than the rule. just don't let your bank know what you're up to or any close friends since they might rat you out. Shocked

in fact, just keep it a secret from everyone and make sure to use a vpn or two here on bitcointalk.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 02, 2022, 06:08:41 PM

They don't have to be able to control bitcoin. All they have to do is make laws regarding its use.

They can put pressure to its usage, sure. But, they don't control the protocol, which is what I meant.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 02, 2022, 06:08:41 PM

The OFAC could just as easily come out and say US persons and entities are prohibited from using bitcoin.

Authorities can come out and say whatever the hell they want. If there's demand & supply for something, there will also be a market for it. Prohibitions might threaten some citizens, similar to media's FUD if you think about it, but the fact remains: It's an unstoppable currency that satisfies a need which can't be satisfied otherwise. Some people will always use it, same as they use drugs regardless of being illegal or not.

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 02, 2022, 06:08:41 PM

What you gonna do then? Become a law breaker?

Perhaps.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on September 02, 2022, 12:51:46 PM

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

Enjoy it while it lasts because if the government (USA government) ever gets their grubby hands on bitcoin, they'll try and introduce controls over how much btc you can send at one time.

The US government, just like any government, doesn't control bitcoin.

They don't have to be able to control bitcoin. All they have to do is make laws regarding its use.

Just as an example:

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/08/08/crypto-mixing-service-tornado-cash-blacklisted-by-us-treasury/

The Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC), a watchdog agency tasked with preventing sanctions violations, on Monday added Tornado Cash to its Specially Designated Nationals list, a running tally of blacklisted people, entities and cryptocurrency addresses. As a result, all U.S. persons and entities are prohibited from interacting with Tornado Cash or any of the Ethereum wallet addresses tied to the protocol. Those who do may face criminal penalties.

Quote

Users do. In the same way they don't control peer-to-peer communication, file sharing-- encryption in general. Not only do they can't prevent you from broadcasting a transaction, but they can't even be sure who's making that very transaction. That's the beauty of transparency. You can verify that the transaction is settled without knowing who's sending to who.

The OFAC could just as easily come out and say US persons and entities are prohibited from using bitcoin. What you gonna do then? Become a law breaker? Bitcoin won't save you if you get caught using bitcoin then. About the only thing you could do then is renounce your US citizenship and move to another country. Or just stop using bitcoin. Most people would do that.

In Monday’s action OFAC sanctioned Tornado Cash’s donation address, proxy address, a Gitcoin grants address and several others, including a few USDC addresses. More than 40 addresses in total were put on the sanctions list.
Circle blacklisted the sanctioned Tornado addresses, freezing over $75,000 worth of USDC, later Monday.
Tornado Cash's GitHub and website went offline as well. Tornado Cash developer Roman Semenov's GitHub was suspended.

Bitcoin has a github and its devs have github accounts too.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: larry_vw_1955 on September 01, 2022, 07:25:44 PM

Enjoy it while it lasts because if the government (USA government) ever gets their grubby hands on bitcoin, they'll try and introduce controls over how much btc you can send at one time.

The US government, just like any government, doesn't control bitcoin. Users do. In the same way they don't control peer-to-peer communication, file sharing-- encryption in general. Not only do they can't prevent you from broadcasting a transaction, but they can't even be sure who's making that very transaction. That's the beauty of transparency. You can verify that the transaction is settled without knowing who's sending to who.

larry_vw_1955

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on September 01, 2022, 03:40:31 AM

So I have to go to the bank, prove who I am, have my ID checked, have the cashier produce a check, have it signed, have it countersigned, send it to the other person, they have to take it to their bank, have it checked by their bank, arrange with yet more third parties to actually transfer the funds, the list goes on. That's a lot of third parties who need to agree to the process, any one of which could decide to deny my request.

That's how it is supposed to be apparently. The government makes it hard to transfer larger amounts. And you're at the mercy of banks.

Quote

With bitcoin, I make a transaction, I sign it, I broadcast it. Done. There is no one to deny me anything.

Enjoy it while it lasts because if the government (USA government) ever gets their grubby hands on bitcoin, they'll try and introduce controls over how much btc you can send at one time. And don't try and "structure" your transactions because that will be against the law too.

Quote

Or just trade peer to peer.

And keep your fiat under a mattress. Because you wouldn't want the government knowing you cashed out some bitcoin. not if it was $100 million. Then pay for things with cash. Alot of things. Shocked

Quote from: franky1

then you would split funds into sub $100k amounts. to not be watched by the higher up teams of investigators

well i get what you're saying franky but i think all of what you discussed concerning splitting up funds into smaller sub accounts is what the US government calls "structuring". whether you do it using bitcoin or with fiat, i'm sure the irs would still consider it a crime. i should say POTENTIAL crime. one they need to investigate, etc. Shocked

darkangel11

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I don't get why people see old coins moving as frightening or worrying. It's great that these coins aren't lost, that's 1. 2, if that person sells, the coins will get redistributed among many new users so there won't be a whale to worry about in future but maybe some new bitcoiners will buy them at low price at or near the cycle bottom.
It's normal that coins change hands. Stop whining.

Quidat

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Quote from: coolcoinz on September 01, 2022, 12:49:09 PM

Quote from: SpenserReed on August 31, 2022, 12:25:17 AM

Quote from: casinotester0001 on August 30, 2022, 06:39:38 AM

5000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved, maybe 3 More Wallets Wait to Send Bitcoin as they have the same origin ~21000 BTC.

It's strange that they didn't have any movement when BTC was over 50k... Huh

No it's not strange at all. You move your coins when you move your coins. A few reasons why people move coins are:
Wallet software or hardware change
Death. Coins were recovered by family and moved.
If it's a Mt.Gox wallet these are being redistributed this year.
We could go on and come up with a few more but what's the point? As it was said earlier in the thread moving doesn't mean selling.

People are just too reactive when it comes to these kind of aspect which it isnt really out business on whether those coins would be moved or not by its owners. Cheesy

Its true that there are lots of factors which could really be the reason on why these coins been moved out and its true and precise that being moved doesnt
automatically means that it would be sell out but i cant blame out people not to have these kind of things in mind considering on how long those coins been holded up
and now it did make out some movement then its maybe the right time to get some profits.

BitcoinADAB

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on August 30, 2022, 06:39:38 AM

5000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved, maybe 3 More Wallets Wait to Send Bitcoin as they have the same origin ~21000 BTC.

What for accounts are these?

Looks like they came from the Mt Gox breach that occurred in 2011.

https://news.bitcoin.com/whale-spends-10000-btc-worth-203m-bitcoins-stem-from-infamous-2011-mt-gox-hack/

casinotester0001

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Quote from: casinotester0001 on August 30, 2022, 04:28:34 PM

Quote from: DaveF on August 30, 2022, 10:53:00 AM

Addresses and money like this move all the time, sometimes people are looking around for them and see them. Many times they do not.
The OP seems to be digging into and poking around old addresses for some reason. I think everyone who gets into BTC does that at some point in time.

6 months ago discovered the chapter "lost/damaged wallets/passwords/keys" in the Bitcoin world. Since then looking for stories, wallets, transactions that are connected with such addresses. So found also this address. But so far no clues whether it's a recovered wallet. I must say there are so many fantastic stories (but also lot of fake wallets, damaged keys). I hope that people who lost their keys can be able to get their coins one day.

One of the best stories is a guy who created lots of addresses, printed the screen output for each wallet on paper and stored them years ago. Then transferred over a long period BTC from exchanges to these addresses (The sum is huge). But he thought that a message plus the signature of this message can be used as private key and all of his prints on paper show exactly this. Instead of printing the WIFs, he made a cold wallet storage on paper of the signatures as he never saw a WIF private key before and thought that these are used to create signatures with the Bitcoin GUI. The good part of the story is: one day he will be able to calculate the private keys as each print shows several windows where also the txt window is visible with parts of the WIF. What I want to say: 'Your Keys, Your Coins' but understand exactly what private keys are, how they work and test it with small amounts (to an address and from that address to a new address) before you do it with large ones.

Maybe this 5000 BTC account was such a case, the owner was able to 'reconstruct' or 'calculate' his lost/destroyed private key.

coolcoinz

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Quote from: SpenserReed on August 31, 2022, 12:25:17 AM

Quote from: casinotester0001 on August 30, 2022, 06:39:38 AM

5000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved, maybe 3 More Wallets Wait to Send Bitcoin as they have the same origin ~21000 BTC.

It's strange that they didn't have any movement when BTC was over 50k... Huh

No it's not strange at all. You move your coins when you move your coins. A few reasons why people move coins are:
Wallet software or hardware change
Death. Coins were recovered by family and moved.
If it's a Mt.Gox wallet these are being redistributed this year.
We could go on and come up with a few more but what's the point? As it was said earlier in the thread moving doesn't mean selling.

Topic: 5,000 BTC from Satoshi-Era Wallet Moved - page 2. (Read 1007 times)