51% problem still existant after all coins have been mined ?

lynn_402

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 253

Quote from: ranochigo on August 07, 2014, 09:49:38 AM

Quote from: Fenriswolf on August 06, 2014, 12:11:57 PM

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 11:27:11 AM

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

And that is really bad? If the new algorithm is incompatible with asics, maybe many of the users (who are far from mining because of the dificulty and costs) will start to mine themselves for the stability and safety of the network...

Yes. For people who invested a lot of money into mining, they don't have any chances of getting ROI. If the new algorithm can be CPU mined effectively, botnet mining would resurface. Botnet mining are most probably stopped now since the difficulty is so high.

I'm guessing they are still quite present, since they cost nothing for the operator. And they are most likely very profitable with X11 or X13 or whatever.

Fenriswolf

full member

Activity: 122

Merit: 100

Understood, guess there's much into it

Thanks ranochigo and Peter882 for the info!

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: Fenriswolf on August 06, 2014, 12:11:57 PM

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 11:27:11 AM

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

And that is really bad? If the new algorithm is incompatible with asics, maybe many of the users (who are far from mining because of the dificulty and costs) will start to mine themselves for the stability and safety of the network...

Yes. For people who invested a lot of money into mining, they don't have any chances of getting ROI. If the new algorithm can be CPU mined effectively, botnet mining would resurface. Botnet mining are most probably stopped now since the difficulty is so high.

Peter882

hero member

Activity: 543

Merit: 500

Quote from: Fenriswolf on August 06, 2014, 12:11:57 PM

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 11:27:11 AM

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

And that is really bad? If the new algorithm is incompatible with asics, maybe many of the users (who are far from mining because of the dificulty and costs) will start to mine themselves for the stability and safety of the network...

It is not easy to implement such change as it will be a hard fork.
The core devs will need to get a certain degree of consensus from bitcoin users, merchants and miners.

adaryian

sr. member

Activity: 392

Merit: 250

★ BitClave pre-ICO: 25/07/17 ★

Really the best way to keep from the 51% is to not mine at pools above 40%. That way it keeps the protocol decentralized.

nwfella

legendary

Activity: 1610

Merit: 1000

Well hello there!

Quote from: ashe on July 26, 2014, 01:08:32 PM

Most people wont live that long to see all this mined.

There isn't a person alive today that will be alive the day the last Bitcoin is mined.

Last bitcoin won't be mined til 2140 so unless your thinking medical technology is going to extend lifespan's pretty significantly in the next 120 some odd years or so I don't think anybody on these forums will ever witness the last coin being mined.

lynn_402

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 253

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 11:27:11 AM

Quote from: lynn_402 on August 06, 2014, 10:23:39 AM

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 05:05:50 AM

Quote from: MilesJohan on August 06, 2014, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: 42246709215 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:17 AM

Someday all Bitcoins will have been mined.

Is mining then still necessary ?

And is the 51% problem still in existance ?

Actually, it is easiest to 51% attack after all bitcoins have been mined due to the decrease in difficulty...

Difficulty may not decrease since no new coins are released to the trading market. There would be much more demands. Miners can still earn from transaction fees which is probably around $10-100. I don't think much people would stop mining since even advanced ASICs would have came out. If everyone stops mining, many would turn on their machine again to profit pushing the difficulty up.

Since this will be in so many years, I think it's safe to say that the developpers will find a way to adapt so 51% attacks are not a concern.

A new algorithm perhaps?

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

Perhaps a PoW-like system would be made, which makes 51% attacks impossible, and would still be compatible with ASICs. It's so far in the future that there's no way to know what kind of developpment will happen Cheesy

Fenriswolf

full member

Activity: 122

Merit: 100

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 11:27:11 AM

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

And that is really bad? If the new algorithm is incompatible with asics, maybe many of the users (who are far from mining because of the dificulty and costs) will start to mine themselves for the stability and safety of the network...

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: lynn_402 on August 06, 2014, 10:23:39 AM

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 05:05:50 AM

Quote from: MilesJohan on August 06, 2014, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: 42246709215 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:17 AM

Someday all Bitcoins will have been mined.

Is mining then still necessary ?

And is the 51% problem still in existance ?

Actually, it is easiest to 51% attack after all bitcoins have been mined due to the decrease in difficulty...

Difficulty may not decrease since no new coins are released to the trading market. There would be much more demands. Miners can still earn from transaction fees which is probably around $10-100. I don't think much people would stop mining since even advanced ASICs would have came out. If everyone stops mining, many would turn on their machine again to profit pushing the difficulty up.

Since this will be in so many years, I think it's safe to say that the developpers will find a way to adapt so 51% attacks are not a concern.

A new algorithm perhaps?

A new algorithm may be incompatible for ASICs. It isn't easy for developers to just make a fork and make all the users and miners to switch to a new client. It doesn't benefit those with big ASIC farms since all their hardware would be wasted.

lynn_402

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 253

Quote from: ranochigo on August 06, 2014, 05:05:50 AM

Quote from: MilesJohan on August 06, 2014, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: 42246709215 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:17 AM

Someday all Bitcoins will have been mined.

Is mining then still necessary ?

And is the 51% problem still in existance ?

Actually, it is easiest to 51% attack after all bitcoins have been mined due to the decrease in difficulty...

Difficulty may not decrease since no new coins are released to the trading market. There would be much more demands. Miners can still earn from transaction fees which is probably around $10-100. I don't think much people would stop mining since even advanced ASICs would have came out. If everyone stops mining, many would turn on their machine again to profit pushing the difficulty up.

Since this will be in so many years, I think it's safe to say that the developpers will find a way to adapt so 51% attacks are not a concern.

A new algorithm perhaps?

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: MilesJohan on August 06, 2014, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: 42246709215 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:17 AM

Someday all Bitcoins will have been mined.

Is mining then still necessary ?

And is the 51% problem still in existance ?

Actually, it is easiest to 51% attack after all bitcoins have been mined due to the decrease in difficulty...

Difficulty may not decrease since no new coins are released to the trading market. There would be much more demands. Miners can still earn from transaction fees which is probably around $10-100. I don't think much people would stop mining since even advanced ASICs would have came out. If everyone stops mining, many would turn on their machine again to profit pushing the difficulty up.

MilesJohan

sr. member

Activity: 378

Merit: 250

Quote from: 42246709215 on July 25, 2014, 06:24:17 AM

Someday all Bitcoins will have been mined.

Is mining then still necessary ?

And is the 51% problem still in existance ?

Actually, it is easiest to 51% attack after all bitcoins have been mined due to the decrease in difficulty...

littlewizard

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Yes, of course it exist, as long as there is POW, their is 51% attack, it doesn't matter if there is block reward or not.

kingama

member

Activity: 94

Merit: 10

The key defence to problems of miner concentration is keeping the hashrate distributed among unrelated pools. People cite 40% or 30% as a threshold but really it should be lower. That is you need to ensure that n parties cannot collude to do this attack. For the case of n = 3, you get 100/6 or 16.7% as a threshold value. I suppose as the mining community matures even lower thresholds will be seen as prerequisite policy. Things also tend to settle down when hashrate isn't increasing like a mofo.

Whether tx fees will be enough remains to be seen but if enough commerce will ever support it, 30-100 years should be enough time to get there. It's only been 20 or so years since the Internet started to become widely used.

Soappa

hero member

Activity: 569

Merit: 500

Quote from: nicepumper on July 27, 2014, 11:39:43 AM

I dont hink it will be a problen once all coins are mined.

Not really, people with a majority of network hashrate can still launch double spend attacks on casinos and exchanges, even when there is no block reward at all.

nicepumper

newbie

Activity: 56

Merit: 0

I dont hink it will be a problen once all coins are mined.

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: Soappa on July 27, 2014, 10:32:31 AM

Quote from: ranochigo on July 27, 2014, 10:20:15 AM

They do charge maintenance fees, they deduct from your mined amount.

True, but they could still charge those maintenance, electricity and hosting fees for people mining elsewhere with the cex hashrate.

Quote from: ranochigo on July 27, 2014, 10:20:15 AM

They have previously planned about this but they did not implement it at all. Also, I don't think it is possible since they do not assign individual hardwares to each user.

Hmmm I haven't considered this before, and that could be the actual reason.
If someone buy just 10 GH/s on cex, I am not sure how cex can deliver exactly 10GH/s to other pool, say Slush, for that user.

I don't think it would be possible to charge fees when they are mining at other pools. When mining at their pool, they can charge it directly from the mining profits, without much risk if the user refused to pay. I agree it is impossible, for it to be possible, you would need hundreds of 10GH devices and it would require a lot of effort for them to setup for each user.

Soappa

hero member

Activity: 569

Merit: 500

Quote from: ?? on ??

cex isn't worth it, there are much more profitable cloud mining services

That's true, and I don't suggest anyone to use it at all, because of the high price.
I mention it just because we were discussing about the 51% attack and Ghash.io (Cex.io and Ghash.io are indeed the same company).

Soappa

hero member

Activity: 569

Merit: 500

Quote from: ranochigo on July 27, 2014, 10:20:15 AM

They do charge maintenance fees, they deduct from your mined amount.

True, but they could still charge those maintenance, electricity and hosting fees for people mining elsewhere with the cex hashrate.

Quote from: ranochigo on July 27, 2014, 10:20:15 AM

They have previously planned about this but they did not implement it at all. Also, I don't think it is possible since they do not assign individual hardwares to each user.

Hmmm I haven't considered this before, and that could be the actual reason.
If someone buy just 10 GH/s on cex, I am not sure how cex can deliver exactly 10GH/s to other pool, say Slush, for that user.

ranochigo

legendary

Activity: 3038

Merit: 4418

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: Soappa on July 27, 2014, 10:17:52 AM

Quote from: ranochigo on July 27, 2014, 05:41:25 AM

Quote from: Tammy Chan on July 27, 2014, 05:07:59 AM

Quote from: forsakenpnut on July 26, 2014, 02:47:41 PM

cex.io have said they arent intending of launching an attack.

I don't have any info on this, but I found the following thread (https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ghashio-and-double-spending-against-betcoin-dice-327767) that mentioned Ghash.io did try to double-spend against a casino...

That was from a long time ago, they already clarified that it isn't them but a previous employee. However, the fact that they refused to take actions to lower their hashrates except to warn people is suspicious. I don't think by posting on Twitter or here would influence much people to move away from their pool.

I don't really understand why Cex doesn't allow its users to point their hashrate to other pools and thus easily lower the Ghash hashrate.
Ghash doesn't charge a pool fee AFAIK, so they should get no benefits from forcing Cex users to mine on Ghash...

They do charge maintenance fees, they deduct from your mined amount. They would also have to deduct your reject works. They have previously planned about this but they did not implement it at all. Also, I don't think it is possible since they do not assign individual hardwares to each user. They have included the option to redeem hardware but I see no reason in users doing that since they have to pay the electrical cost and to manage it themselves.

Topic: 51% problem still existant after all coins have been mined ? (Read 2414 times)