Topic: 7Gh/s ... NMC or BTC ... or BTC pool hopping? (Read 5320 times)
It's extra effort, relative analysis and development to shoot at miners and forget about them. This is no more stealing than switching from BTC to mining namecoin during the subsidized period. You know, jumping pools are cheating, simple and simple. You stole from honest miners who participated in the pools.
Thanks. I'm trying to mull over the pros/cons of pool hopping. The morality argument smacks (to me) of youth. If anyone can pool hop, then it doesn't seem immoral since the opportunity is there for everyone. Similarly, if more people hopping would make hopping less profitable, then even more so.
It's like saying you're "cheating" by driving your car more efficiently than its EPA MPG rating. Technically, you're cheating the oil companies, who like it or not DO influence Washington when it comes to MPG legislation. So by driving your car more efficiently, you're hurting the oil companies who then have to raise the price of oil, which hurts everyone. Pretty ridiculous argument, no? Logically equivalent though.
Good for people (especially young folks) to be *thinking* about morality though. Shows it's not totally dead. So I'm not gonna rail on them for it.
It's more like cutting in line - if the line ain't moving fast enough, just skip a few people...
But I think this should be addressed by pool operators if they don't like it. If there are pools that allow it, they're victimizing themselves because it's easy enough to make unprofitable.
You're going to get the highest payout from hopping. Just think about it in a 2 pool world with no other operators. So pool A and B both start mining and you join pool A. After 10 mins, pool B finds a block. Now, all the work you've done for A is basically useless (new block = new work). So if you switch to pool B, you have the same likelihood of finding a block as you would in pool A, but you also get paid for the previous work you did for pool A even though it is of no use in finding the current block.
Basically, you get paid extra if you mine in the "freshest" pool.
You should join my pool (info in sig). Tripleminig has weekly jackpots of 1.5 BTC and pool hoppers can't take shares from the pool (recent upgrade)
All in all you loose at least 1% if you don't do refspamming and the chance to get teh jackpot is also not that high - so a serious miner is far better off with a 0% pool. 
You search for this one here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3165.0
And you dont mine to 43/47/??% CDF but until 43.5% of the current difficulty (43.5% of ~1.6 million) difficulty1 shares have been mined. If pools switched to diff2 shares, you would need to hop at 21.75% etc.
There is a constantly maintained and (very) fast evolving pool hopping proxy program available just 3 clicks from this thread. all you then need to do is enter your own worker data there, run the proxy and point your miners to the PC that runs the proxy. No other manual intervention needed (other than constantly updating the proxy, as pool operators don't put any terms on their page - but seem to like to "fight" pool hopping as "illegal/unwanted/against TOS").
In this sense pool hopping has also a real risk of loosing BTC due to getting banned/cheated by pool operators
And you dont mine to 43/47/??% CDF but until 43.5% of the current difficulty (43.5% of ~1.6 million) difficulty1 shares have been mined. If pools switched to diff2 shares, you would need to hop at 21.75% etc.
There is a constantly maintained and (very) fast evolving pool hopping proxy program available just 3 clicks from this thread. all you then need to do is enter your own worker data there, run the proxy and point your miners to the PC that runs the proxy. No other manual intervention needed (other than constantly updating the proxy, as pool operators don't put any terms on their page - but seem to like to "fight" pool hopping as "illegal/unwanted/against TOS").
In this sense pool hopping has also a real risk of loosing BTC due to getting banned/cheated by pool operators
Thanks. I'm trying to mull over the pros/cons of pool hopping. The morality argument smacks (to me) of youth. If anyone can pool hop, then it doesn't seem immoral since the opportunity is there for everyone. Similarly, if more people hopping would make hopping less profitable, then even more so.
It's like saying you're "cheating" by driving your car more efficiently than its EPA MPG rating. Technically, you're cheating the oil companies, who like it or not DO influence Washington when it comes to MPG legislation. So by driving your car more efficiently, you're hurting the oil companies who then have to raise the price of oil, which hurts everyone. Pretty ridiculous argument, no? Logically equivalent though.
Good for people (especially young folks) to be *thinking* about morality though. Shows it's not totally dead. So I'm not gonna rail on them for it.
You should join my pool (info in sig). Tripleminig has weekly jackpots of 1.5 BTC and pool hoppers can't take shares from the pool (recent upgrade)
You search for this one here: http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=3165.0
And you dont mine to 43/47/??% CDF but until 43.5% of the current difficulty (43.5% of ~1.6 million) difficulty1 shares have been mined. If pools switched to diff2 shares, you would need to hop at 21.75% etc.
There is a constantly maintained and (very) fast evolving pool hopping proxy program available just 3 clicks from this thread. all you then need to do is enter your own worker data there, run the proxy and point your miners to the PC that runs the proxy. No other manual intervention needed (other than constantly updating the proxy, as pool operators don't put any terms on their page - but seem to like to "fight" pool hopping as "illegal/unwanted/against TOS").
In this sense pool hopping has also a real risk of loosing BTC due to getting banned/cheated by pool operators
And you dont mine to 43/47/??% CDF but until 43.5% of the current difficulty (43.5% of ~1.6 million) difficulty1 shares have been mined. If pools switched to diff2 shares, you would need to hop at 21.75% etc.
There is a constantly maintained and (very) fast evolving pool hopping proxy program available just 3 clicks from this thread. all you then need to do is enter your own worker data there, run the proxy and point your miners to the PC that runs the proxy. No other manual intervention needed (other than constantly updating the proxy, as pool operators don't put any terms on their page - but seem to like to "fight" pool hopping as "illegal/unwanted/against TOS").
In this sense pool hopping has also a real risk of loosing BTC due to getting banned/cheated by pool operators
YOu need to read a paper on why mining to the 47% CDF point is optimal (the number could be wrong but it should be close).
You can't do that with BTCguild or slush because their stats are delayed.
You can't do that with BTCguild or slush because their stats are delayed.
Been trying to Google and am not coming up with much.
There is a program which simply re-directs your miners to the pool most likely to yield the highest per-share return. It's that easy -- track down that proxy and run your miners against it.
You don't round robin, you join the pool working on the freshest block. The math behind Raulo's Pool Hopping Exploit seems easy enough, but clearly I failed to comprehend it correctly. I am willing to trust empirical results observed by those running it however, and reported values are consistently 10% over expected payout at a minimum (that's why I used that number in my OP).
You don't round robin, you join the pool working on the freshest block. The math behind Raulo's Pool Hopping Exploit seems easy enough, but clearly I failed to comprehend it correctly. I am willing to trust empirical results observed by those running it however, and reported values are consistently 10% over expected payout at a minimum (that's why I used that number in my OP).
YOu need to read a paper on why mining to the 47% CDF point is optimal (the number could be wrong but it should be close).
You can't do that with BTCguild or slush because their stats are delayed.
You can't do that with BTCguild or slush because their stats are delayed.
Ok, I'll wait a few days and re-post my question in (hopefully) a more hijack proof manner.
I was mainly curious about which would be most profitable: BTC mining, NMC mining, or BTC pool hopping.
Seems like the latter is the winner but I'm still somewhat at a loss as to how it's done best. I mean, if I just rotate my miners every 10 minutes or something I'm not clear on how that improves my profit.
I think my lack of understanding is specific to how "shares" are translated into BTCs on various pools. I know Slush's pool uses a score based mechanism that discourages hopping. But "straight up" share based mechanisms (like Deepbit, BTC Guild, etc...) seem as though hopping would net you no real gain. My thinking is that when you hop, you get a proportionately smaller share.
So I'm not clear on how your "hopped" shares from differ from the sum total you'd normally get by staying with one pool.
I was mainly curious about which would be most profitable: BTC mining, NMC mining, or BTC pool hopping.
Seems like the latter is the winner but I'm still somewhat at a loss as to how it's done best. I mean, if I just rotate my miners every 10 minutes or something I'm not clear on how that improves my profit.
I think my lack of understanding is specific to how "shares" are translated into BTCs on various pools. I know Slush's pool uses a score based mechanism that discourages hopping. But "straight up" share based mechanisms (like Deepbit, BTC Guild, etc...) seem as though hopping would net you no real gain. My thinking is that when you hop, you get a proportionately smaller share.
So I'm not clear on how your "hopped" shares from differ from the sum total you'd normally get by staying with one pool.
You're looking at it wrong. Yes, pool operators cheating is always a possibility. We evaluate it and go with the most trustworthy option. For example, I like some of the decisions Tycho has made and believe him to be trustworthy. Which is why my miners are pointed at deepbit as often as practical.
But that has nothing to do with pool hopping. The solution to pool hopping is for *EVERYONE* to do it, or for no one to do it. Relying on "morals" to police the population simply means a smaller, less ethical proportion of the population will benefit to a larger degree. That is of little to no value.
Spreading awareness of the problem and its magnitude is part of a solution. Encouraging pool hopping until the rewards at susceptible pools approach normal rewards and/or vulnerable pools fix themselves is a solution. Ignoring it and simply going "nono it's bad don't do it" is useless.
But that has nothing to do with pool hopping. The solution to pool hopping is for *EVERYONE* to do it, or for no one to do it. Relying on "morals" to police the population simply means a smaller, less ethical proportion of the population will benefit to a larger degree. That is of little to no value.
Spreading awareness of the problem and its magnitude is part of a solution. Encouraging pool hopping until the rewards at susceptible pools approach normal rewards and/or vulnerable pools fix themselves is a solution. Ignoring it and simply going "nono it's bad don't do it" is useless.
I wish that were not the case, but that is probably the most succinct rationalization for pool hopping I have seen. Claiming it is ethical, is flat out false, but claiming the only way to fix it is to do it, that I can't argue. Wouldn't it be nice if people would have enough self respect to not sell their ethics for a few extra btc.
There's no such thing as cheating in a free market. Pool hopping is just taking advantage of the weak and defenseless who are too dumb to protect themselves. It's what capitalism and liberalism is all about, so don't fight it - embrace it. The almighty Market will sort it out, so who are you to interfere?
WHAT?!?!?!?!?!?
Yeah, Ponzie schemes exist in the free market, cheating...
There are MANY MANY MANY examples of cheating in the free market... Bait and switch, false advertising,
Unless you meant your post ironically, in which case please use the ironic emote in the future
You're looking at it wrong. Yes, pool operators cheating is always a possibility. We evaluate it and go with the most trustworthy option. For example, I like some of the decisions Tycho has made and believe him to be trustworthy. Which is why my miners are pointed at deepbit as often as practical.
But that has nothing to do with pool hopping. The solution to pool hopping is for *EVERYONE* to do it, or for no one to do it. Relying on "morals" to police the population simply means a smaller, less ethical proportion of the population will benefit to a larger degree. That is of little to no value.
Spreading awareness of the problem and its magnitude is part of a solution. Encouraging pool hopping until the rewards at susceptible pools approach normal rewards and/or vulnerable pools fix themselves is a solution. Ignoring it and simply going "nono it's bad don't do it" is useless.
But that has nothing to do with pool hopping. The solution to pool hopping is for *EVERYONE* to do it, or for no one to do it. Relying on "morals" to police the population simply means a smaller, less ethical proportion of the population will benefit to a larger degree. That is of little to no value.
Spreading awareness of the problem and its magnitude is part of a solution. Encouraging pool hopping until the rewards at susceptible pools approach normal rewards and/or vulnerable pools fix themselves is a solution. Ignoring it and simply going "nono it's bad don't do it" is useless.
When you pool hop, you steal from the other pool members, who make less money than they *should* because of your "optimizations".
There's no such thing as cheating in a free market. Pool hopping is just taking advantage of the weak and defenseless who are too dumb to protect themselves. It's what capitalism and liberalism is all about, so don't fight it - embrace it. The almighty Market will sort it out, so who are you to interfere?
I agree pool hopping is cheating, plain and simple, and you people suggesting otherwise just shows a lack of ethics. Nothing wrong with maximizing profits? So if a pool owner decided to not announce a block won and keeps it for himself, isn't that just maximizing profits? If you drop out of a pool, you decrease the hashrate of the pool which decreases the chances of a block being found. That in turn increases the length for a new block to be found, thus taking from the hands of honest miners.
I for one definitely have the technical skills to pool hop, not that it takes any more technical skills than being honest. The difference is I am an ethical person and I am in the game with the other miners in the pool. I will not steal from them, and I would hope they will not steal from me.
tl;dr: you are all a bunch of assholes
I for one definitely have the technical skills to pool hop, not that it takes any more technical skills than being honest. The difference is I am an ethical person and I am in the game with the other miners in the pool. I will not steal from them, and I would hope they will not steal from me.
tl;dr: you are all a bunch of assholes
You can rationalize your theft all you want.
You aren't putting in 15% more effort to find blocks, but you'll happily walk away with 15% more pay.
Mining namecoins for a few days is different. You're mining something more profitable. You're not stealing from anyone.
When you pool hop, you steal from the other pool members, who make less money than they *should* because of your "optimizations".
That's cheating, and stealing.
It's nice to know the next generation doesn't have any morals.
You aren't putting in 15% more effort to find blocks, but you'll happily walk away with 15% more pay.
Mining namecoins for a few days is different. You're mining something more profitable. You're not stealing from anyone.
When you pool hop, you steal from the other pool members, who make less money than they *should* because of your "optimizations".
That's cheating, and stealing.
It's nice to know the next generation doesn't have any morals.
By your definition, you're cheating when mining namecoins. You're stealing from long-term namecoin miners.
Also, I probably have t-shirts older than you.
By the way Anusgelus is only 21 and he thinks 95% of miners are 18 and under living in their mom's basement.
That's why he tries to act like a wise old grandpa, and calls miners "next generation" and "young whippersnapper"
Someone tell me which pool Anusgelus is mining so I can personally go there and pool hop it.
^ This.
Look at how stupid you are.
This is a free market. Nobody has a gun to miner's heads coercing them to mine in any pool susceptible to hopping. They have plenty of alternatives and yet they still choose to mine there for whatever reason.
This is precisely what happens with NMC to BTC. Every other 2016 blocks many NMC miners *choose* to mine at a 25-40% disadvantage to the exchange rate for a month to subsidize a 2-3 day profit bonanza for BTC miners. Nobody forces them, yet they're glad to do it for whatever reason. Am I stealing when I only mine NMC when that has a 50% advantage relative to exhange rate subsidized by their month long loss?
Also, I probably have t-shirts older than you.
This is a free market. Nobody has a gun to miner's heads coercing them to mine in any pool susceptible to hopping. They have plenty of alternatives and yet they still choose to mine there for whatever reason.
This is precisely what happens with NMC to BTC. Every other 2016 blocks many NMC miners *choose* to mine at a 25-40% disadvantage to the exchange rate for a month to subsidize a 2-3 day profit bonanza for BTC miners. Nobody forces them, yet they're glad to do it for whatever reason. Am I stealing when I only mine NMC when that has a 50% advantage relative to exhange rate subsidized by their month long loss?
Also, I probably have t-shirts older than you.
Someone tell me which pool Anusgelus is mining so I can personally go there and pool hop it.
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