Remember folks: thou shall not steal. It's fun when you do it to other people, it's not fun when other people do it to you.
Thou shalt not steal. The government hates competition.
Topic: A disadvantage of NOT being recognized as currency by governments (Read 3028 times)
Thou shalt not steal. The government hates competition.
July 03, 2011, 01:41:05 AM
Some people believe that governments can help people pool their resources to achieve thing they or the free-market wouldn't achieve alone. It is obvious that with the unclear status of bitcoin everyone can use their discretion.
You choose if you want to report it as capital gains, hobby income, or commodity trading. If the Government comes around and makes some kind of ruling on the issue, you can re-file your taxes with the corrected numbers. Refiling may be more painful if you actually owe a large sum of money you did not declare already.
You choose if you want to report it as capital gains, hobby income, or commodity trading. If the Government comes around and makes some kind of ruling on the issue, you can re-file your taxes with the corrected numbers. Refiling may be more painful if you actually owe a large sum of money you did not declare already.
July 02, 2011, 04:15:25 PM
Let me see: someone feels guilty of not paying taxes on Bitcoin? This is beyond ridicolous. What's the whole point of creating an anarchist cryptogeek currency? To go kissing Uncle Scam's ass once again? Puh-leeaze! (Feel free to confess your torts to the IRS if that will make you feel better, though).About the "protection" of the law, it's not intended for you. That should be clear at this point.
July 02, 2011, 12:50:35 PM
I think it is more like stealing Euros or Yens in America. It's not the officially recognized currency, businesses are not forced by law to accept them. But does it make stealing them irrelevant? Of course not!
...and whether or not bitcoin is a currency at all is irrelevant. Artwork isn't recognized as currency, nor is its exact value determinable but stealing them isn't irrelevant!! So long as the government recognizes that Bitcoin has SOME value as an asset, stealing it can be dealt with just as seriously as theft of a piece of art.
Yes, and the value is objectively measurable, because you can argue that it takes a certain amount of value ($15+ or so) to get new bitcoins (because you can't create them out of thin air technically, and people want that much money for them).
July 02, 2011, 10:55:32 AM
I think it is more like stealing Euros or Yens in America. It's not the officially recognized currency, businesses are not forced by law to accept them. But does it make stealing them irrelevant? Of course not!
...and whether or not bitcoin is a currency at all is irrelevant. Artwork isn't recognized as currency, nor is its exact value determinable but stealing them isn't irrelevant!! So long as the government recognizes that Bitcoin has SOME value as an asset, stealing it can be dealt with just as seriously as theft of a piece of art.
July 02, 2011, 09:57:00 AM
Breaking into computers and vandalism are crimes anyway, no matter whether anybody recognizes the value of any data.
July 02, 2011, 09:34:19 AM
Ya for sure. I think once we start seeing people go to jail for stealing BTC the people who think it's "just world of warcraft type coins" will probably go away once they see that there is real consequences for their actions...
July 02, 2011, 09:05:56 AM
I think it is more like stealing Euros or Yens in America. It's not the officially recognized currency, businesses are not forced by law to accept them. But does it make stealing them irrelevant? Of course not!
July 02, 2011, 08:37:34 AM
Ok, the person has contacted me in a panic by email. He is really sorry and having anxiety attacks about it.
He's only in a panic about being caught. Where were the anxiety attacks when he was hatching the scheme?Quote
But I worry what if he wasn't and I told?
It will be up to him to recover his reputation through honest transactions. July 01, 2011, 04:09:18 PM
Ok, the person has contacted me in a panic by email. He is really sorry and having anxiety attacks about it. From looking at his posts he doesn't seem to be scamming people. He felt desperate and explained why. His identity isn't really anonymous and after looking through some stuff it looks like they were telling the truth. He has promised to not try it again and that he was in a moment of weakness and thought it would fix his situation.
I know he could be lying. But I worry what if he wasn't and I told? But he truly seem scared of an internet mob and is sorry. I'm satisfied and I'll just have to have faith he was honest in the end. And to that person: Learn from this. Making bad choices WILL catch up to you. And keep your promise or you will make a fool of us both.
And now back to our scheduled discussion....
I know he could be lying. But I worry what if he wasn't and I told? But he truly seem scared of an internet mob and is sorry. I'm satisfied and I'll just have to have faith he was honest in the end. And to that person: Learn from this. Making bad choices WILL catch up to you. And keep your promise or you will make a fool of us both.
And now back to our scheduled discussion....
July 01, 2011, 03:36:14 PM
only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal
You have no responsibility to someone trying to commit fraud. If I tell you to promise to keep a secret, and then reveal to you that my secret is that I am a lifetime conman or a serial killer, you do not have a responsibility to keep my secret. On the contrary, you have a responsibility to let people know who is attempting this fraud, so that people may protect themselves from this scum. He's likely conning unwitting people in the Bitcoin Marketplace right now.
July 01, 2011, 03:14:00 PM
only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal
You have no responsibility to someone trying to commit fraud. If I tell you to promise to keep a secret, and then reveal to you that my secret is that I am a lifetime conman or a serial killer, you do not have a responsibility to keep my secret. On the contrary, you have a responsibility to let people know who is attempting this fraud, so that people may protect themselves from this scum. He's likely conning unwitting people in the Bitcoin Marketplace right now.
So, who is it?
July 01, 2011, 03:08:09 PM
I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal
You punish them by imposing opportunity costs. You refuse to do business with them in the future and you warn others to do the same. If this seems inadequate, all the more reason to prevent fraud and theft in the first place.
July 01, 2011, 03:01:10 PM
I would promise confidentiality to someone ONLY contingent on their offering something legitimate. If they offer to run a blatant scam, I no longer consider it (or their identity) confidential.
July 01, 2011, 02:14:21 PM
Being totally off of any laws does allow for way more freedom. This is a huge plus. But, a little while ago I was approached about rigging my lottery and splitting the winnings. (apparently they missed the part where it's impossible) I think the most interesting thing they said was:
I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.
Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal
Quote
and it wouldn't technically be so (referring to theft/fraud), because bitcoins don't have a worth recognized by the government so it would be equivalent to scamming someone of some gold in a MMRPG
-only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal...I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.
Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal
I wonder what the heck they thought they were bringing to the table. If you planned to cheat, why split it etc.... and who could trust them and why should they trust you for a planned cheat, lol...
In any case, I think he is wrong, I think in any common law jurisdiction at least, the existing case law would make it theft/fraud. Legal tender does not need to exchange hands for this. Else seems thieves would be running rampant, as long as they just made sure not to touch those worthless dollars.
July 01, 2011, 02:09:00 PM
Being totally off of any laws does allow for way more freedom. This is a huge plus. But, a little while ago I was approached about rigging my lottery and splitting the winnings. (apparently they missed the part where it's impossible) I think the most interesting thing they said was:
I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.
Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal
Quote
and it wouldn't technically be so (referring to theft/fraud), because bitcoins don't have a worth recognized by the government so it would be equivalent to scamming someone of some gold in a MMRPG
-only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal...I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.
Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal
Whoever sent you that message is a moron. I've been involved in gaming in other unregulated places such as Second Life and Avination, and i can tell you this: the lack of regulation does attract dishonest people, however the ones that keep their games honest and provide good service make a lot of money in the long run (so much more that its totally counterproductive to cheat).
Another advantage of noregulation, the honest game owners are able to provide MUCH HIGHER payback-ratio than you'll find on any online casinos (because they don't have to spend annual fees on licensing, and countless amounts of hours auditing). Any regular player will quickly realize if a game is rigged or if it's fair.
July 01, 2011, 01:57:59 PM
You practically don't need courts of law of you have escrow and GPG web of trust.
July 01, 2011, 01:52:37 PM
A real engative for miners: you all do tax fraud 
If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe
If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe
I operate a mining business: I produce a commodity for which I am paid in U.S. Dollars. This is no different from being a farmer or mining actual gold.
Exactly as I say
Gold is VAT taxed in europe Ouch.This is potentially a critical area. I am in the same problematic area here, things still being under review in my accountant's office
July 01, 2011, 01:21:04 PM
OP: .... And having things like TOR around allows for child rapists and murders to communicate with each other. Theoretically, a silk road human/sex trafficking market could emerge (or already exist).
The down side to privacy and freedom is that the bad guys also have it. You have to decide for yourself if this is something you can live with.
I know. I think the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. I was just stating ONE disadvantage to having no laws laying out exactly what bitcoins are. People will use the argument - well it's digital toy money. I know it's a bullshit justification. I'm happy as long as bitcoins are recognized as "property with value" and that thieves are prosecuted if found. The down side to privacy and freedom is that the bad guys also have it. You have to decide for yourself if this is something you can live with.
July 01, 2011, 12:59:26 PM
OP: .... And having things like TOR around allows for child rapists and murders to communicate with each other. Theoretically, a silk road human/sex trafficking market could emerge (or already exist).
The down side to privacy and freedom is that the bad guys also have it. You have to decide for yourself if this is something you can live with.
The down side to privacy and freedom is that the bad guys also have it. You have to decide for yourself if this is something you can live with.
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