A disadvantage of NOT being recognized as currency by governments - page 2.

enmaku

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Quote from: NetTecture on July 01, 2011, 10:46:23 AM

A real engative for miners: you all do tax fraud Wink

If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe Wink

I operate a mining business: I produce a commodity for which I am paid in U.S. Dollars. This is no different from being a farmer or mining actual gold. If I hold some of my BTC it's roughly the same as keeping some of my crops/gold for personal use or as savings. All of the above scenarios have specific tax statutes which apply to them and which should apply to bitcoin until such time as it becomes regulated otherwise. Since tax law currently views me in the same light as a farmer or (gold) miner, my taxes will be prepared and paid in precisely the same manner.

For investors, it's much the same as trading stocks, bonds, commodities or FOREX. Gains are not considered "realized" until BTC are converted back into USD and captial gains taxes are to be paid on any realized gains as normal.

I don't understand why everyone thinks of bitcoin any differently right now. It's essentially the same as a commodity market: people produce it, people use it as an investment vehicle and people use it for barter - there are specific tax laws for each and every one of these scenarios (at least in the U.S.) with regard to other commodities and at present they're quite likely to apply directly to bitcoin.

Gabi

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If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat

A trade with bitcoins is protected by the law exactly like a trade with gold or what else

If i sign a contract where i exchange gold for bitcoin and you take the gold and run away without paying, well, law will protect me.

markm

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Quote from: NetTecture on July 01, 2011, 10:46:23 AM

A real engative for miners: you all do tax fraud Wink

If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe Wink

I, in my capacity as Digitalis Data Services, provide data services, such as the manipulation of data.

Were I to sell a program, Nova Scotia and/or Canada sales taxes, lately combined it seems as "GST" would be chargeable. However were I to fix some flaw in a program or correct some inadequacy of a database, a data field, a variable's value etc etc etc, that kind of service is, 'they' assured me, not subject to such tax.

-MarkM- (I'd still owe income tax if I earned enough in a year to be so rich I'd owe them instead of them paying me via GST rebates etc.)

GeniuSxBoY

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Quote

it wouldn't technically be so (referring to theft/fraud), because bitcoins don't have a worth recognized by the government so it would be equivalent to scamming someone of some gold in a MMRPG

People cannot be trusted. This is why the bible was invented.

The bible exists it order to control people from justifying behaviors without moral consequence.

It's why the 10 commandments were adopted.

Just because you CAN kill people, it doesn't mean you should.

But people aren't that smart or responsible.

So the only thing smart and responsible to do to control people was to tell them that an imaginary force called GOD was watching them at all times and that they'd be punished for wrong-doing.

Viola! Murders go down.

Remember folks: thou shall not steal. It's fun when you do it to other people, it's not fun when other people do it to you.

tvbcof

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Seems to me that it is possible and in fact not uncommon to cheat people using systems that are, in theory, lawful and supposedly regulated.

Google 'redefining systemic risk' for a very interesting vid. During the dot-com (which is the first time I ever had any money) It became clear to me that the SEC's purpose in life is to hold 'normal' down while they are ass-raped by the SEC's hedge fund owners. I went with PM's instead.

I have vastly more confidence in bitcoin than I do in anything which is officially protected by the US corp/gov system. bitcoin is actually remarkably simple and straightforward. And are proving themselves to be quite robust under what would be the equivalent of a nuclear bomb in most systems (that is, the loss of 90% of the exchange platforms, huge thefts, early adopters with massive holdings, etc.)

NetTecture

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A real engative for miners: you all do tax fraud Wink

If bitcoins are not a currency, then they are a good. if they are a good, then all kinds of transactional taxes apply. in the US you may have to charge sales tax, in europe a "miner" is basically "creating" bitcoins which, if they are a good, require VAT to be collected on a sale. SIGNIFICANT disadvantage - suddenly you loose a significant part, theoretically, of your income, unless you sell them out of europe Wink

bitlotto

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BitLotto - best odds + best payouts + cheat-proof

Quote from: hugolp on July 01, 2011, 10:15:33 AM

As you say, everything has its goods and bads.

But in this case, you are being unfair towards liberty. The government is imposing a monopolly on justice therefore making it impossible for private justice companies to appear and deal with this type of situations.

Good point. I'm more a computer nerd and not well versed in politics! Wink

phillipsjk

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Let the chips fall where they may.

I think in most jurisdictions, promising goods and services you know you won't deliver is considered fraud. It does not matter if these "goods" are recognized as a currency or not. I am using that reasoning to avoid the bitcoin ponzi scheme (I think participating in a ponzi scheme, disclosed or not, is illegal in my jurisdiction).

I think in the US they consider wire fraud more serious because it happens remotely and as such is scary.

markm

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12357005

Just because our cryptochips aren't used exclusively for poker doesn't mean a theft of $500,000 worth of data is not theft.

-MarkM-

hugolp

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Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol

As you say, everything has its goods and bads.

But in this case, you are being unfair towards liberty. The government is imposing a monopolly on justice therefore making it impossible for private justice companies to appear and deal with this type of situations.

bitlotto

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BitLotto - best odds + best payouts + cheat-proof

Being totally off of any laws does allow for way more freedom. This is a huge plus. But, a little while ago I was approached about rigging my lottery and splitting the winnings. (apparently they missed the part where it's impossible) I think the most interesting thing they said was:

Quote

and it wouldn't technically be so (referring to theft/fraud), because bitcoins don't have a worth recognized by the government so it would be equivalent to scamming someone of some gold in a MMRPG

-only remaining anonymous because I promised before the conversation expecting some type of business deal...

I didn't really think about that till then. The double edge sword of using the argument "it's not recognized by law anyway as currency". Because it's not recognized as currency by law emboldens some to try to steal. Regrettably this wild freedom also has it's cost. Probably more scammers and thieves.

Myself, I'd probably pick total freedom even with this cost. IMHO it's worth it.
edit: I just wish we could still have the freedom but still punish those who do steal

Topic: A disadvantage of NOT being recognized as currency by governments - page 2. (Read 3028 times)