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Topic: A Federal judge in new York has not recognized bitcoin as money - page 2. (Read 2519 times)

legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
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So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it

And what does it change in respect to your original claim?

Namely, that Bitcoin is not a currency since it is not accepted as a legal tender anywhere if other currencies are not accepted either (apart from their home countries, of course). Indeed, if the Japanese Yen is adopted by Kenyan government for payment of taxes, it will become quite useful in Kenya, but I could just as well say that the same is equally applicable to Bitcoin. In fact, the chances of some government (like that of Kenya) to accept Bitcoin seem to be a lot higher than accepting the Japanese Yen since the latter is one of many other fiat currencies out there while Bitcoin is unique (even among cryptocurrencies). Strictly speaking, the Japanese Yen is one of the major currencies along with the US dollar, British pound, Swiss franc and Euro
full member
Activity: 193
Merit: 100
Everybody would want bitcoin not to be recognised as money. It is working best in the way it works currently. Investing in it as commodity is the best way to keep bitcoin alive for long time. Also how can we forget our huge profits that it has given back for our investments. Also if people start using bitcoin in terms of illegal activities them they will have to pay for it. :-)

Yes, it's better for bitcoin. Now you can make good money by investing in coins and you do not need to pay tax for it.
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 259
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable

It is highly unlikely that any major government will ever go that route

Since that would effectively mean creating competition for the local currency which these governments print. Why would they want that? By going that way, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Though some minor governments (and especially those which are already using some foreign currency as a legal tender) may in fact accept Bitcoin as a legitimate payment for taxes provided its price stabilizes over long enough term (but no sooner than that)

Yeah that was the point. I was trying to show where fiat gets its value from, and thats because governments accept them as payment for your dues. To be defined as real currency, BTC has to be accepted by the government for tax payments

In fact, this is a shaky argument

If not to say that it is a completely false one. There are over 100 fiat currencies in the world, and only a few are accepted as legal tender in more than one country. In general, one specific currency is accepted in only one country, namely, where this currency happens to be printed. So, according to your reasoning, any foreign currency is not a real one, right? You may claim, of course, that at least one country should accept a currency to be considered as "real" but if some tiny and utterly inconsequential government accepts Bitcoin as legal payment for taxes, what would it essentially change? Would it make Bitcoin into a "real" currency?

That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currncies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen

Up to some extent, yes the Japanese Yen will always be useless for a guy in Kenya. But imagine this. If the Kenyan government start accepting Japanese Yen as payment for their people's taxes then everything about it changes. Its like a license for everybody in Kenya to start accepting it.
sr. member
Activity: 714
Merit: 252
Everybody would want bitcoin not to be recognised as money. It is working best in the way it works currently. Investing in it as commodity is the best way to keep bitcoin alive for long time. Also how can we forget our huge profits that it has given back for our investments. Also if people start using bitcoin in terms of illegal activities them they will have to pay for it. :-)
legendary
Activity: 3276
Merit: 1029
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Bitcoin still in grey area, but no country make any decisions whether bitcoin is money or not,
May you read the title again? Newyork and it's a part of USA.  Roll Eyes

some country adapted bitcoin and we can used it to pay things but still not recognised as money,
so actually it's quite confusing, but it is a good thing if not considered as money so when we exchange bitcoin we won't be accused of money laundering
Only japan and no more. Japan already determined bitcoin as legal payment which means if bitcoin can be determined as a legal currency in his country, but not for another country. They're just announcing about the bitcoin not for the legal status of bitcoin itself.
sr. member
Activity: 882
Merit: 269
Were they see it as money from beginning? I don't think so. The governments are hiding from the through, they know that as far as they cannot destroyed bitcoin the only way is to arrest traders and said they are doing money laundry through bitcoin. Governments should no that bitcoin is decentralized! And that it can not stop bitcoin to perform role of money in our societies.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1001
Bitcoin still in grey area, but no country make any decisions whether bitcoin is money or not, some country adapted bitcoin and we can used it to pay things but still not recognised as money, so actually it's quite confusing, but it is a good thing if not considered as money so when we exchange bitcoin we won't be accused of money laundering
legendary
Activity: 3346
Merit: 1352
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currencies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with.

Japanese Yen is a currency which can be easily exchanged anywhere in the world. I am sure that there are hundreds of currency exchanges in Kenya, which accept the JPY. If you are talking about currencies such as the Lebanese pound, then I'd somewhat agree. But don't say that it is completely worthless. You can find a trader in Lebanon or some other country, and then use Western Union to exchange the money.
hero member
Activity: 1078
Merit: 514
Maybe it is for better, cause of they don't accept bitcoin as money there is no needs to pay taxes form bitcoin earnings, as we pay it from our salaries.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable

It is highly unlikely that any major government will ever go that route

Since that would effectively mean creating competition for the local currency which these governments print. Why would they want that? By going that way, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Though some minor governments (and especially those which are already using some foreign currency as a legal tender) may in fact accept Bitcoin as a legitimate payment for taxes provided its price stabilizes over long enough term (but no sooner than that)

Yeah that was the point. I was trying to show where fiat gets its value from, and thats because governments accept them as payment for your dues. To be defined as real currency, BTC has to be accepted by the government for tax payments

In fact, this is a shaky argument

If not to say that it is a completely false one. There are over 100 fiat currencies in the world, and only a few are accepted as legal tender in more than one country. In general, one specific currency is accepted in only one country, namely, where this currency happens to be printed. So, according to your reasoning, any foreign currency is not a real one, right? You may claim, of course, that at least one country should accept a currency to be considered as "real" but if some tiny and utterly inconsequential government accepts Bitcoin as legal payment for taxes, what would it essentially change? Would it make Bitcoin into a "real" currency?

That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currncies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with

So you basically confirm that any fiat currency, maybe, only apart from the major ones that are universally accepted (like the US dollar) are not real ones from a view-point of someone to whom they are of no use. In this way, they are not real currencies, and the whole issue can be happily reduced to what someone thinks about a specific currency (more specifically, whether he can pay taxes with it or not, as per your reasoning). If so, how Bitcoin is different from all these other "unreal" currencies then?

Note that for a Kenyan merchant it is of no importance if someone can pay taxes somewhere with the Japanese Yen
sr. member
Activity: 868
Merit: 259
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable

It is highly unlikely that any major government will ever go that route

Since that would effectively mean creating competition for the local currency which these governments print. Why would they want that? By going that way, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Though some minor governments (and especially those which are already using some foreign currency as a legal tender) may in fact accept Bitcoin as a legitimate payment for taxes provided its price stabilizes over long enough term (but no sooner than that)

Yeah that was the point. I was trying to show where fiat gets its value from, and thats because governments accept them as payment for your dues. To be defined as real currency, BTC has to be accepted by the government for tax payments

In fact, this is a shaky argument

If not to say that it is a completely false one. There are over 100 fiat currencies in the world, and only a few are accepted as legal tender in more than one country. In general, one specific currency is accepted in only one country, namely, where this currency happens to be printed. So, according to your reasoning, any foreign currency is not a real one, right? You may claim, of course, that at least one country should accept a currency to be considered as "real" but if some tiny and utterly inconsequential government accepts Bitcoin as legal payment for taxes, what would it essentially change? Would it make Bitcoin into a "real" currency?

That is why merchants dont accept the foreign currencies. Because its not worth anything to them. They cant pay their expenses with it nor their taxes. The need to convert it which is very tedious because some currencies need to go through the US dollar first. From the point of view of a merchant from Kenya, the Japanese Yen is something he can wipe his ass with.
hero member
Activity: 1918
Merit: 564
There is not country in the world where btc is recognised like a money,but psst if bankers will read that thay will start launder money with btc,btc will jump to 100k $.Like a side effect we wil have crash on dollar

Is not Japan stated that Bitcoin is money and even Philippines declared the same? 

Quote
but psst if bankers will read that thay will start launder money with btc,btc will jump to 100k $

are not they already laundering their clients money, spending them to anywhere they wanted and making it hard for the owner to even move a cent from his money.  It does not seem like it because they are the authority.  No one will question it because in their system, their actions are legit and we clients agree with it.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
New York politics are corrupt. Maybe one of the most corrupt states in america.

It took forever for them to legalize mixed martial arts.

They like to stall on new legislature and sabotage the legal process to milk issues for everything they're worth.
I see no problem with them not recognizing Bitcoin as money. We don't really need regulated Bitcoin for anything.
Regulation equals taxes and special units in every government agency dedicated to Bitcoin tracking. I'd prefer if they left it alone and kept thinking it's a harmless movement managed and supported by a group of nerds.

I strongly second this view

While some form of government regulation may somewhat help Bitcoin adoption, there is no reason to think that this regulation will be very Bitcoin-friendly overall. Basically, Bitcoin (just like any other foreign currency, for the record) is a competitor to a local currency, so you shouldn't harbor much hope in respect to such regulation. It will most likely be aimed at making the lives of generic Bitcoin users harder, certainly not easier. Existing foreign currency regulations are like that. They essentially limit the free circulation of these currencies, if not outright ban them. So beware of false prophets preaching for Bitcoin regulation
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 300
You will not legally accept BitCoin. But you will also be punished if there is an unlawful event in the proceedings related to it.If you make decisions based on bitcoin , you need to know bitcoin first.The judge made the right decision.The government accepts the bitcoin first.   Maybe then the judge can make decisions


 
hero member
Activity: 2184
Merit: 531
New York politics are corrupt. Maybe one of the most corrupt states in america.

It took forever for them to legalize mixed martial arts.

They like to stall on new legislature and sabotage the legal process to milk issues for everything they're worth.
I see no problem with them not recognizing Bitcoin as money. We don't really need regulated Bitcoin for anything.
Regulation equals taxes and special units in every government agency dedicated to Bitcoin tracking. I'd prefer if they left it alone and kept thinking it's a harmless movement managed and supported by a group of nerds.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable.
Paying the taxes in bitcoin would be something really great for all bitcoin users, there would be just no struggle with doing that totally online, when in some countries you cannot even pay the taxes through the internet-which is a very huge disadvantage.

Also, adoption od BTC by governments would give the countries even more and more taxes, so why cannot we see something like this?

That's highly unlikely

As to me, the adoption of Bitcoin by governments would actually cause the tax revenues to dry up. How come? Simply because it is easier not to pay taxes with Bitcoin than with fiat money. Obviously, when a government starts accepting Bitcoin as legal tender ("a payment for all public debts and duties"), that will give Bitcoin a strong boost among general public as well as turn it into a vehicle for massive tax evasion. As the proverb goes, to think bad of people is a sin but rarely a mistake
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1500
Even though the bitcoin was sold for wrong reason like selling drugs, I am happy that the judge did not recognize it as a money and more like a commodity. Because bitcoin is indeed a commodity, an online commodity to be precise. Bitcoin is holding its value in USD and people across the world are involved in trading of the same.

It may bring some good news to all the bitcoin users across the states of US because I heard they are pretty stringent about bitcoin and planning to tax it heavily. This judgement can bring some other thoughts about bitcoin which may open up some opportunities to debate.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 250
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable.
Paying the taxes in bitcoin would be something really great for all bitcoin users, there would be just no struggle with doing that totally online, when in some countries you cannot even pay the taxes through the internet-which is a very huge disadvantage.

Also, adoption od BTC by governments would give the countries even more and more taxes, so why cannot we see something like this?

Obviously i would prefer for bitcoin to be tax free but i doubt that we can really hope for that.
legendary
Activity: 3514
Merit: 1280
English ⬄ Russian Translation Services
Another thing to discuss is its also good if the government or whoever starts accepting BTC as a currency. It would mean we could also pay our taxes with it. One of fiat's important function is to pay what we owe the government with it. Its one property that makes fiat valuable

It is highly unlikely that any major government will ever go that route

Since that would effectively mean creating competition for the local currency which these governments print. Why would they want that? By going that way, they will be shooting themselves in the foot. Though some minor governments (and especially those which are already using some foreign currency as a legal tender) may in fact accept Bitcoin as a legitimate payment for taxes provided its price stabilizes over long enough term (but no sooner than that)

Yeah that was the point. I was trying to show where fiat gets its value from, and thats because governments accept them as payment for your dues. To be defined as real currency, BTC has to be accepted by the government for tax payments

In fact, this is a shaky argument

If not to say that it is a completely false one. There are over 100 fiat currencies in the world, and only a few are accepted as legal tender in more than one country. In general, one specific currency is accepted in only one country, namely, where this currency happens to be printed. So, according to your reasoning, any foreign currency is not a real one, right? You may claim, of course, that at least one country should accept a currency to be considered as "real" but if some tiny and utterly inconsequential government accepts Bitcoin as legal payment for taxes, what would it essentially change? Would it make Bitcoin into a "real" currency?
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 250
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This makes sense because bitcoin is not an official currency. Also, gold is not considered a currency and neither is paypal.
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