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Topic: A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work. - page 2. (Read 4867 times)

sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
We not gonna settle for that, anyway. This shit will be brought down one way or the other. And the ones responsible tared and feathered.
I'll be just like Realsolid and BitcoinExpress, can't wait.  Smiley

Still waiting for a response to my bold question above ^^

I'm starting to get the impression that you are very disturbed by what we are doing. Most replying are just curious, initally negative, or "hating." Thats totally understandable when dealing with a new technology.

But you concern me. Please don't read our threads if you feel this threatened by a computer program.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
We not gonna settle for that, anyway. This shit will be brought down one way or the other. And the ones responsible tared and feathered.
I'll be just like Realsolid and BitcoinExpress, can't wait.  Smiley

Still waiting for a response to my bold question above ^^
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250

Wait a sec, that is good, if noone ever touches the "foundation" funds. If i understood that right, the foundation demuraged funds are back for mining, right? (no? duh, explain)
Then there shouldnt be any foundation at the first place, and miners should get the same amount (this 5%(dunno if its even close to 50 frc/block)
Then all those threads wouldnt exist and everybody would be happy with our new coin lol

Yes, if noone ever touches the foundation funds the miners will eventually end up with it anyways. So, it's really not as much of an issue as everyone makes it out to be.

I agree and im with you then only if you have a way to prove that noone ever touches them. Why not release the TF client as the original one? That way all problems solved, and you keep this 7mil you already have. Either way you should distribute those coins to the miners.. but its your decision.. (my address is in my sig lol)
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
This is becoming ridiculous, you freicoin sockpuppets avoid one simple question:

Why do you think that the foundation would distribute the coins fairly?
You claim that, but besides that there is no indication that this is going to be the case.
Every instance of centralized finance proves otherwise. Think the 50+ percent of btc in the hand of early adopters is bad? Think again, in freicoin it would be much worse.

People recieving the funds would be those who are friends of foundation members, and their friends and so on down the road. The issue is that this is unjustified.
now answer that!
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
You do know it is 5% per year right?  So the 80M FRC the foundation has (or will have) will still be ~62M FRC in 5 years, 48M FRC in 10 years.  Yes slowly all funds will be converted via demurage into miner rewards but this isn't something special with FRC it applies to all coins held by all wallets all the time.

You are forgetting the point of the foundation, to get rid of it's funds. The bylaws are being created right now, go help and suggest that all coins must be disbursed to end users within 5 years.

Also, the math for 5%/year as a miner subsidy is dead easy at steady state. 100M coins at 5% demurrage (acutally 4.89%) is 4.89 million coins per year, or about 93 coins per block.

Which requires absolute implicit trust = fail IMHO.  If I trusted the FED to do the right thing I wouldn't need cryptocurrency.  If I trusted PayPal, or eGold I wouldn't need Bitcoin.  A decentralized "solution" which requires implicit trust in a central authority is of dubious value.  You combine all the flaws of central authority with all the overhead of decentralizing the blockchain.

Still that is a little off point I was just clarifying that while all the coins will go to miners "eventually" the half life on that eventually is about 13.5 years.
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
You do know it is 5% per year right?  So the 80M FRC the foundation has (or will have) will still be ~62M FRC in 5 years, 48M FRC in 10 years.  Yes slowly all funds will be converted via demurage into miner rewards but this isn't something special with FRC it applies to all coins held by all wallets all the time.

You are forgetting the point of the foundation, to get rid of it's funds. The bylaws are being created right now, go help and suggest that all coins must be disbursed to end users within 5 years.

Also, the math for 5%/year as a miner subsidy is dead easy at steady state. 100M coins at 5% demurrage (acutally 4.89%) is 4.89 million coins per year, or about 93 coins per block.
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311

Wait a sec, that is good, if noone ever touches the "foundation" funds. If i understood that right, the foundation demuraged funds are back for mining, right? (no? duh, explain)
Then there shouldnt be any foundation at the first place, and miners should get the same amount (this 5%(dunno if its even close to 50 frc/block)
Then all those threads wouldnt exist and everybody would be happy with our new coin lol

Yes, if noone ever touches the foundation funds the miners will eventually end up with it anyways. So, it's really not as much of an issue as everyone makes it out to be.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
You do know it is 5% per year right?  So the 80M FRC the foundation has (or will have) will still be ~62M FRC in 5 years, 48M FRC in 10 years.  Yes slowly all funds will be converted via demurage into miner rewards but this isn't something special with the foundation, it applies to all FRC coins held by all wallets, all the time.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
After that? What miners will get? Will that be after halving or something? (if there is halving)
When will this happen, and what guarantees me that you will not sell everything and abandon frc?
Maybe even now you could "sell frc" as i see always threads popping up "wts 10k frc" etc etc..

With the current rate 7mil frc(which you own) are at about 2240.0btc (if my calculation was correct)
Since you are so greedy to put a "tax" like that, what says to me that you will not start selling them and run away?
Its what I contributed to be mined, thats why i ask

and i cannot forget this from maaku:
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

The miners get the foundations funds at a rate of 5% per year. The miners will eventually have all of the foundations funds. There is no halving, the miners will always get the 5%.

Wait a sec, that is good, if noone ever touches the "foundation" funds. If i understood that right, the foundation demuraged funds are back for mining, right? (no? duh, explain)
Then there shouldnt be any foundation at the first place, and miners should get the same amount (this 5%(dunno if its even close to 50 frc/block)
Then all those threads wouldnt exist and everybody would be happy with our new coin lol
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
After that? What miners will get? Will that be after halving or something? (if there is halving)
When will this happen, and what guarantees me that you will not sell everything and abandon frc?
Maybe even now you could "sell frc" as i see always threads popping up "wts 10k frc" etc etc..

With the current rate 7mil frc(which you own) are at about 2240.0btc (if my calculation was correct)
Since you are so greedy to put a "tax" like that, what says to me that you will not start selling them and run away?
Its what I contributed to be mined, thats why i ask

and i cannot forget this from maaku:
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

The miners get the foundations funds at a rate of 5% per year. The miners will eventually have all of the foundations funds. There is no halving, the miners will always get the 5%.
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.

No. It eventually decreases to zero.

After that? What miners will get? Will that be after halving or something? (if there is halving)
When will this happen, and what guarantees me that you will not sell everything and abandon frc?
Maybe even now you could "sell frc" as i see always threads popping up "wts 10k frc" etc etc..

With the current rate 7mil frc(which you own) are at about 2240.0btc (if my calculation was correct)
Since you are so greedy to put a "tax" like that, what says to me that you will not start selling them and run away?
Its what I contributed to be mined, thats why i ask

and i cannot forget this from maaku:
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.

No. It eventually decreases to zero.
donator
Activity: 1731
Merit: 1008
Can I see the discussion where it was decided 80% would go to a foundation ?

80% seems like the dumbest ratio, I would find anything above 10% to be stupid and greedy.

Is this 80% expected to stay forever ? is so, this has to be the worst idea for a crypto currency yet.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767

How about stopping the project and do it the right way:

1. Implement more innovative and up-to-current-tech-level features, like SHA-384, 2 minute block, simple and unique address format, etc.
2. Hire freelancers to create copies of KickStarter, SatoshiDice, Bitvisitor, BitMit, Reedit tip BOT for your forum and like 20 more coin "sinks".
3. Once step 2. is complete, get miners and others to announce coin launch few weeks in advance on as many news outlets as possible.
4. Once time is right, release the coin client using BitTorrent, to null the chance of failed launch due download server becoming DDoS-ed.
5. Miners get 100% coins. Regardless of if you chose to mine yourself or not, you get fame, glory, community and working demurrage system.

If you people behind Freicoin think you are neccessary and important when it comes to anything but providing the tools, you are dead wrong.

I second this notion.
1+2 are probably overkill but you are trying to be innovative aren't you?   Wink

This ^
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
how about working out how we need to distribute the coins in fashion that is ultimately in the interest of the WHOLE community rather than one segment? http://www.freicoin.org/freicoin-foundation-development-thread-t81.html#p767

How about stopping the project and do it the right way:

1. Implement more innovative and up-to-current-tech-level features, like SHA-384, 2 minute block, simple and unique address format, etc.
2. Hire freelancers to create copies of KickStarter, SatoshiDice, Bitvisitor, BitMit, Reedit tip BOT for your forum and like 20 more coin "sinks".
3. Once step 2. is complete, get miners and others to announce coin launch few weeks in advance on as many news outlets as possible.
4. Once time is right, release the coin client using BitTorrent, to null the chance of failed launch due download server becoming DDoS-ed.
5. Miners get 100% coins. Regardless of if you chose to mine yourself or not, you get fame, glory, community and working demurrage system.

If you people behind Freicoin think you are neccessary and important when it comes to anything but providing the tools, you are dead wrong.

I second this notion.
1+2 are probably overkill but you are trying to be innovative aren't you?   Wink
sd
hero member
Activity: 730
Merit: 500
You are the one being blinded with greed... you want cryptocurrencies to be a way for you and your ilk to get rich at the expense of the currency community as a whole. Sad that you have no vision of the future of humanity, let alone the Freicoin.

Where as you would distribute my work amongst a wide community to enrich all instead of me selfishly keeping it. That sounds nice for the community but it totally removes my incentive to mine and makes the whole community poorer because of it. Your shadowy foundation can have 80% of the zero I'm mining.

What you are attempting to implement is communism not democracy. Communism is a beautiful idea but it has never worked in practice. To quote an evil old dragon 'The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.'
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

OMG, maaku, if miners work to mine(CREATE) them, they are theirs.

Offtopic: PPcoins grow out of nowhere Smiley

You have a fundamental misunderstanding here.

Miners are paid for confirming the transactions with a subsidy, they don't exert any more work to generate coins for themselves AND the Foundation vs. just for themselves. There is no ironclad rule that generation all has to go to miners, or that miners are entitled to 100% of all coins created by their efforts. If the creation of 750 coins was 3 times more intensive than generating 250 coins you might have a point, but in this case you are conflating a reward for work with the work itself.

This is a rule/parameter/behavior of Bitcoin, not something that must be true of all p2p mined PoW cryptocoins.

By the same logic I would have a right to get upset that the block reward fluctuates on PPCoin, or any number of other unreasonable complaints. But I looked up the rules to the PPCoin game, and decided I liked them well enough to play. If I missed something (like I did when I initially thought PPC would be deflationary) then that was my own fault.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

If I mine coins I see them as mine. They were created with my equipment, my electricity, my time. If you plan to steal them before they are even created I'm going to avoid you like I'd avoid any other thief. No miner will gave away what he could otherwise keep no matter how pretty your reassurances are.

But you are blinded by greed and can no longer see anything but dollar signs. Look at this from the miners viewpoint.


Greed? I don't have mining rig... I am not part of the dev team or a FFoundation member. You are limiting the scope of what is possible. If you mine it you are accepting the 80% and the 5% and if you don't mine it you accept the 80% and 5% and if you trade it you accept the 80% and 5%. So now that we have settled that how about actually taking a leap of faith and get involved in DEMOCRATICALLY dispensing the trust? Rather than having a small foundation board decide why not the whole community? Isn't having an 80% stake initially of the currency for all better than a fraction of that in a few hands? I think you want to be a 1% and hold as many coins as you can compared with the alternative is having a currency that actually is useful and used for trade not accumulation of wealth. Very very limited view you have and ultimately very UN-democratic of you. Basically you want to screw over the users of the currency so you can mine and get rich... well Freicoin is not that kind of currency.

The intent is there all you need to do now is get involved and ENSURE that the 80% is dispensed democratically. You are debating changing the Freicoin into something that it is not and that debate is over. It was over months and months and months ago. Move forward and find the best way possible to dispense the trust. What is so difficult about that concept? Furthering DEMOCRACY in currency not something that interests you? You would rather have a few pools of miners control it all right from day one and there would be little hope of reversing that. Look at Bitcoin now. Look at it very carefully. Freicoin is offering everyone a freedom to be part of the FFoundation and offer your suggestions. Much much more democratic.

You are the one being blinded with greed... you want cryptocurrencies to be a way for you and your ilk to get rich at the expense of the currency community as a whole. Sad that you have no vision of the future of humanity, let alone the Freicoin.
sd
hero member
Activity: 730
Merit: 500
Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.
Those coins were never the miner's to begin with. Why do you feel entitled to them?

If I mine coins I see them as mine. They were created with my equipment, my electricity, my time. If you plan to steal them before they are even created I'm going to avoid you like I'd avoid any other thief. No miner will gave away what he could otherwise keep no matter how pretty your reassurances are.

But you are blinded by greed and can no longer see anything but dollar signs. Look at this from the miners viewpoint.
hero member
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
.. anyone who wants FRC to succeed De-facto wants the foundation to succeed.
No, I want freicoin to succeed, the foundation wasn't part of it when it was announced. And I really don't like the foundation.
I am not a minority here, at least on the latter.


It was posted in several place prior to it being launched as has been indicated many times already.
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