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Topic: A foundation with 80% of the coins can never work. - page 4. (Read 4810 times)

hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

I understand what you're saying if the Foundation was going to hold onto the coins that long, but by 15 years the coins should have hopefully circulated so much that your concern is not so big? Do you disagree?
"hopefully" lol
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.

I understand what you're saying if the Foundation was going to hold onto the coins that long, but by 15 years the coins should have hopefully circulated so much that your concern is not so big? Do you disagree?
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
You are trying to distract from the key points here, I already explained that the portion of wealth to be distributed by the foundation would remain relevant for a very long time. Much longer than the time attributed by the 3 year period. As a rule of thumb since 5% annual demurrage yields a 15 year half life the amount would still be roughly 40% by then. Even after 100 years that would still be roughly 0.6%.
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.


This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.

That you cannot say for certain since we haven't had any coins with demurrage already. I for once am very interested in the concept and would like to try it out in a sane manner.
But every single coin where the creators reserved a substantial part of the currency for themselves died.

Uhm, the demurrage works, Electricmucus. I can say that with absolute certainty that all of my coins are slowly destroying themselves Tongue you can watch it tick down inside the client every time a block comes in. You have to look down quite a few decimal points, however.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.


This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.

Every single coin where the creators reserved a substantial part of the currency for themselves died before it became relevant.
This is no different.
sr. member
Activity: 966
Merit: 311
But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.


This will happen from the demurrage. No force is required. The influence of the Foundation is designed to wane.
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.
by giving less then 100% to miners Freicoin is simply 'buying' less hashing power then earlier coins.

ok then who is Freicoin?

If you calling it whoever is to be supplied by the "Foundation" you fail. At the moment it doesn't even exist and we have not seen any suggestion on how the distribution will be facilitated.
The whole concept fails at one key point: Justification of Authority.


Even if the motives are totally noble like you claim, eventually it will succumb to corruption and yield exactly the problems we currently have in politics and finance:
"Friends" looking out for each other, sitting on the key resources and dominating the masses.
But most likely Freicoin will not even get this far if it isn't overtaken by more sane individuals which force out the 80% tax it will die out in irrelevance like any other coin which was created with unjustified distribution of wealth.

You ask: How much of unjustified distribution is acceptable?
My answer: 0%
sr. member
Activity: 826
Merit: 250
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.

The BTC/LTC model is not 'reasonable' it is simply 'normal', non-miners find it highly UN-reasonable.  Also it is not a 'price' it is a percentage of something that has a completely indeterminate and variable value (a price would be paying per GH), as mining is a self correcting business in which hash rate competition always drives the miners profits down to near zero anyways the result is that any percentage can be just as profitable for miners, by giving less then 100% to miners Freicoin is simply 'buying' less hashing power then earlier coins.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.


+1
sd
hero member
Activity: 730
Merit: 500
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

Maaku,

Would you give up 80% of your wages to a stranger?

No? Then don't expect miners to give you 80% of their earnings when they could mine something else and keep 100%.


Your message that miners should trust some faceless, and inevitably corrupt, foundation with their earnings more than they should trust themselves is delusional. You have fallen to uncontrolled greed.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.

+1
sr. member
Activity: 425
Merit: 262
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

This is ridiculous, if you want to make use of the miners, please pay a reasonable price according to the current BTC/LTC/etc. mining cost. For example, establish an exchange website and buy/sell your FRC at a reasonable price (in BTC/USD/LTC, as your choice) to distribute your centralized currency or buy/accumulate your FRC from the miners! This is a fair/reasonable way for your purpose, otherwise, it's definitely doom to failure.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.

As high as 80% of the total supply, why not just make it higher? 99.99% is better than 80%...using your logic. lol
legendary
Activity: 905
Merit: 1011
Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
Because we want some coins to enter the system bottom-up as well, and mining subsidy is currently the best way to do that.
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
why are only 80% of coins going to the foundation? Common guys, foundation deserves much more than that after all the work they've done.  Grin

Good point.

Why couldn't it be 99.999% instead of 80%?
donator
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1010
Parental Advisory Explicit Content
FREIcoin hmmn sounds very German (Deutsch), they dont know what freedom is look at 1940-1945.
Just another shitcoin, poopcoin, crapcoin, scamcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 412
Merit: 250
why are only 80% of coins going to the foundation? Common guys, foundation deserves much more than that after all the work they've done.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 2492
Merit: 1473
LEALANA Bitcoin Grim Reaper
So what your plans to put value into the currency?

You selling products? setting up service websites? creating applications for merchants to include FRC in their existing website? or u looking for other developers to do this and then u set up rewards and bounties? if so what are your desired projects you want to see?

Yes - except for the part that mentions me specifically. The plan is for the Foundation funds to help facilitate the creation of a sustainable freicoin economy by either helping directly create a marketplace priced in freicoin (bounty/prize grants, subsidies), or providing freicoins to charitable organizations which would buy from that marketplace, thereby helping bootstrap industries.

Is that a little vague? Yes. Because I won't be the one doing it - the Foundation will, and I am not the Foundation. Once the Foundation is set up the private keys will be handed over and the people running the Foundation will handle disbursement.

It's not going to be my proposals that get selected, but yours. Have an idea that has communal value and helps bootstrap the Freicoin economy? Write it up as a proposal.

Wow so much of what Maaku is saying here reminds me of RealSolid.

LOL  Grin Grin Grin
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1227
Away on an extended break
Just to pop in and give my .02 cents:

It's Solidcoins all over again- with the noted addition of witting/unwitting sockpuppets in the tow.

(PS: I remember warning this when Solidcoins v1,2,... just came out.)
legendary
Activity: 1666
Merit: 1057
Marketing manager - GO MP
Then don't use Freicoin.

It's not that easy. If the community decides that doing something like the freicoin devs do is not allowed and backs it up with hashing power there is nothing anybody can do about it.
Added to that there are many people here who are interested in concepts like demurrage and it is quite a disappointment that something gets crippled like that by a small minorities lust for power.




Some food for your thought:
If you really wanna live in the dreamy new world of cryptoanarchism you better learn to obey the laws.
You should know by now that creating a bitcoin fork while trying to be a smartass is against it.

We have not only the realm of alternate cryptocurrencies to protect but also the attribution of bitcoin to decentralization.
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