Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 34. (Read 288306 times)

Trust me on this: you don't want it either.


Ok, answer this: Who owns "Starship Enterprise"? Kirk? Ohh it's the "federation". How do they make Kirk wake up every day and go to work. How about thousands of people aboard Enterprise, why do they show up for work? Ahh I see they are in the Army, so not showing up for work is not an option.


Monetary system has nothing to do with infinite growth. You could have one or the other or both or... none. And yes experiments of this type have been going on all the time. Try North Korea for a start.

But you see thing is: even in North Korea you can pay someone to do something for you. Usually this is called a bribe, but what I think this shows is human nature. And that's what RBE is fighting against. Unfortunately.

Actually analogy with StarTrek is perfect, we should discuss it but for now I have to run, Scotty is calling me there seems to be a problem with one of the rigs.

This is a optimistic view for sure, one could argue that we've stalled (except maybe China) in the last thirty years or so. I think there needs to be a broad-scale restart of the global economy in the near future before we see progress accelerated. The kinds of projects to restart the system aka a globalized world - probably need to be huge in scale i.e space colonization or at least serious energy innovation here on earth.

I'm all for basic provisioning. I'm also all for a cap on capital, in the sense that there should be a limit to what a single entity can move in society.
I'm not so sure about anarcho-capitalism. Without any form of regulations it would become trivial to abuse power. You would need a regulated 'theatre' to have anything like a 'free' market or else it will become abused.

ok yeah good points.

trends do seem to be changing though unless im mistaken this is what i see & please correct me if im wrong:

-  people understand with more detail than ever there doesnt need to be such a huge gap between rich & poor in order for society to function.

- people are less interested in material things vs 10,20,30 years ago etc (houses, cars, jewellery, objects etc)

- people seem to be more interested in science & technology

- people are less interested in religion or things which cant be explained scientifically  (yes religion is still a big deal worldwide but i think science is winning the battle)

- geeks are actually flourishing in many more areas.  females are now more attracted to men with brains vs brawn

- people are concerned about the planet & energy sources more than ever.

- people are fed up with governments & politicians

These trends all lead me to believe some big changes will be happening on planet earth sometime soonish.

Could be anarcho capitalism coming soon maybe.

What about some open source resource management system which allocates base needs of humanistic psychology pyramid?  so food, housing, water & nothing more.   Then rest of society functions via anarcho capitalism for example.   This would mean we would be trusting successful people to not mess with the base infrastructure of the resource management system.  This only works if its more profitable to keep the base resource management system vs manipulating it.  edit:  (not manipulating it, destroying it, manipulation could not be a major problem)

Of course people could own stuff. Owning something is as easy as taking it and stating that you now own it. As long as noone makes the same claim you own it. Problems come when multiple people claim they own the same thing.
If you don't want ownership you would need to prevent people from taking it. And for that you would need to hurt people.

Not true. Money is just a carrier of wealth. If there is no money someone could take control of drinking water and excert power that way. The problem is that when someone collects things that others want (any kind of resource like money, water, food, clean air, etc, etc) it created a power relation. It is just a fact of life. We need stuff to survive and someone can take these things away from us. If you can't prevent that you cannot have a 'fair' system.


The problem is not with the money. Money is just a bunch of tokens.
The problem is the power relations that change under the inflence of posession of resources.
RBE does not solve his problem of inbalance. It just blindly assumes that everyone wants to cooperate and noone will take resource hostage.
In the real world this can only be achieved with coercion which is not part of RBE.


Thisw is just a modern way of managing global resources. It has nothing to do with money itself. It is the system that is flawed. As a society we thrive on pissing away resources. In the past 100 years, when the modern global monetary system emerged, all countries in the world increased life quality. So the system worked better than anything before. We just have to face the fact that resources are limited and in the end we will be forced to accept this.
The (imho) only positive thing about RBE is that it accepts this fact now. But the solution offered is inappropriate for humans.

I think the key thing to understand here is that these are things that most people instinctively want. Most people don't want to live in stress from a perceived danger. Most people don't want to see children die. Most people don't want to see a starving human.
These are all diven by deep instincts.
But when it comes to more subtle social interactions and especially the tradeoff between egoism and alturism the line is clearly blurred.
In general, things that are decided by culture are more prone to debate and it will be impossible to make everybody happy.

I think we have got most of the instincts covered in society, but now what is left is the cultural differences (even within one society) and this is a wild bunch of ideas that will never get settled.

I understand what you're saying, but that could not have worked.
Without regulations any company vaguely in position to scam would do so.
We would not have enough people to audit all of it and thus noone would trust each other and business on a big scale would come to a halt. No more factories, no more machines, no more electronics, no more modern society. Just a big pile of untrustfulness.
And i agree that regulations are not perfect. But at least they put up a barrier for entry so we are not collectively screwed out of a life on a regular basis.
And then of of course you get to the discussion of which regulations make sense and that is a very very broad discussion because there are people on both sides (guess on which side the big corps are..).
This fact that there are different stances in this discussion means that an RBE is just an utopia that could not be upheld in a stable manner.

Want an example of how an more or less unregulated organisation behaves? Look no further than the NSA. Now imagine every megacorp having the same kind of unregulated power.

Humans change very very slowly.
Did you know that bananas are the number one fruit sold in the world?
We  are  basically  still  monkeys...
It will take hundreds of thousands of years before we evolve some more.
Well, unless we geneticaly modify ourselfs. The question is, what will those changes be?
If people will change themselfs to be more greedy bastards then no, RBE can't happen.
For RBE, people need to be more cooperative and less selfish. This is a chance noone will take freely.

RBE won't be utopia. Actually we can't be sure how it would exactly work out in the end. People already experiment with socialism and syndicalism and it didn't went well.

Ideas are a huge asset, thanks for pointing that out.
Youtube?
Sometimes good, but a huge waste of time.

Sperm?
Also a big liability.   

And that's the way it will continue, Monetary systems only last so long and then they fail and we start a new monetary system again, But what i meant by "Infinite growth" was we can only do this so many times before there is no more room left for economic growth, Eventually you have to level every acre of forest and plunder every resource until you run out of one or both, Then comes the big collapse.

After that the only thing left that could save us would be a change in the way we think and relate to the world around us, A global shift in conciouness from the "For profit" state of mind to "We need to work together or we are fucked" state of mind.

Well, somebody has to have a better idea.  The money based systems have collapsed.  Again and again and again, ever since forever.  But what emerges from the wreckage, so far, has always been another money based system.

I think money based systems *are* consistent with sustainability, but so far haven't been sustainable under human management.  Is our management ability getting any better?  I dunno.  Maybe.  We have power tools for information that we didn't have before.  Maybe we'll be able to apply some decent craftsmanship now on a large scale. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zf64WzgJrvY

Origins and Adaptations Part II

Peter Joseph's presentation at the most recent ZDay event in Toronto.

For it to happen a majority of the population would have to want it, There would always be people that don't want it, Like the rich that have a lot to lose and they would of course protest and lobby against the RBE until the day the died.

Some say the RBE would be communism but i disagree, In the venus project style RBE there is no ownership and no money so i don't see how anyone could control the means of production if no one could own anything, It's money that allows people to get into a position of power over others, If you take that away then it becomes more and more difficult to control or have authority over someone else.

This idea is mostly theoretical of course, It's never been tried anywhere.

The only way i see it happening is if we finally exhaust the monetary based systems, This will happen eventually because all monetary based system require infinite growth to survive, The whole infinite growth thing is kinda hard to do on a planet with finite land mass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgPl5nZ3AIw

An interesting artistic film focused on the Venus Project and its principles Jacque and Roxanne.

Utopia is not something that is achievable. The world will never be perfect.

But we've achieved so many things that used to be considered the hallmarks of an impossible Utopia.  Do you realize that less than one person out of ten thousand dies of homicide now? Less than one out of fifteen hundred of starvation?  Nearly all of our children survive to adulthood! That's incredible!  Or at least it would have been back when the word was coined. 

If you'd told Thomas Moore that we'd come this far, he'd have declared it impossible and dismissed you as a dreamer.  He'd have said it was impossible, for reasons of economics and human nature, and according to all that was known of economics and human nature at the time, there'd be no reason to say otherwise. 

Who knows what dreams may become possible -- or be achieved -- in the next few hundred years?

People don't say BRE can't happen, they say that for it to happen, someone has to really coerse and force people around to keep them in line. Just like communism can happen, as long as you kill off about 6 million people who may protest.

people who say an RBE cant happen ever.... what if humans change over time, does that matter?

No it wore-off...

I seen the light...
Then I accidentally pissed on it, and put it out...

JK. No I am just an optimistic realist... Not an overly fantasizing over-optimistic extremist religious nut.

Funny how we always hear the phrase, "What is this world coming to. It was never this bad before!"

Wrong, it was always this bad, you were just oblivious to the reality of the world. Honestly, it has actually gotten better since you were born. I swear! (Not directed at you. That was to the people who say stupid crap like the quote above.)

Everything is right where it needs to be, except for the things that I don't want there...

If everyone just does as I say, I'll be in utopia...

Economy is people-based, not resource based. Resources are just one of the few assets some people use.

Popular assets:
Art
Ideas
Words
Light
Air
Songs
Churches
Love
Sex
Feelings
Listening
Speaking
Programming
Fighting
Death
Birth
Transportation
Stupidity
Education
Inspection
Law
Enforcement
Youtube
Google
Blood
Urine
Sperm
Bone-marrow
Water
Labor
Time
etc... (Not all are resources, while some are, but we all have them, yet it has nothing to do with inflation, yet everything to do with inflation. Want to know more... Give me a dollar and I will tell you. )

I've been online too long.

Wow, is your buzz just kicking in, or are you on the way down?