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Topic: A Resource Based Economy - page 35. (Read 288384 times)

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
March 06, 2014, 12:44:19 AM
Utopia will never happen...

Because by law of nature, there is a balance...

For every person born, who is happy that you are happy...
There is another person born, who is not happy until you are unhappy...

That is just how it works. Deal with it. Tongue

Fine, but small-scale communes are compatible with a free market.
The OP's post isn't realistic, but he can retain the "belief" and live with similar people.

I like competition. 
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
March 06, 2014, 12:39:52 AM
Utopia will never happen...

Because by law of nature, there is a balance...

For every person born, who is happy that you are happy...
There is another person born, who is not happy until you are unhappy...

That is just how it works. Deal with it. Tongue

Poor people call others poor, and make fun of them.
Fat people call others fat, and make fun of them.
Ugly people call others ugly, and make fun of them.
Kind people call others mean, and make fun of them.

You just can't win! Can't win....

There is nothing you can do, which pleases everyone, without hurting someone-else. Thus, nothing is good. Thus, doing nothing is the best you can do, which will still hurt someone.

P.S. Resources is not wealth... Russia has lots of resources... it is poor. Japan has few resources... It is rich.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
March 05, 2014, 11:50:51 PM
I don't like places where people are shooting at each other a lot.  I've lived there.  I have had to draw and fire weapons in order to defend myself and I didn't like it one bit.  I am entirely happy to hire others to help me with my self-defense, and even if I don't completely abdicate the job, I appreciate *NOT* having to carry one of my guns everywhere I go anymore.  That's what the cops are for, and seriously, I would not choose to again live in a heavily populated place without them.

Seriously, the US has a sweet deal going; legal to own and carry, and virtually nobody does.  That's the most awesome combination in the world.  Without a strong presence of mostly non-corrupt police, it's pretty much impossible.  

legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1040
A Great Time to Start Something!
March 05, 2014, 11:48:01 PM
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
March 05, 2014, 11:43:12 PM
We need at least some rules that we can't commit to using just technology. We have to hire some kind of guardian just to enforce the rule about most people being uncoerced most of the time.  And the hell of that is the job can only be done BY coercion of those who would otherwise freely choose to point guns at someone and demand sexual favors on pain of death for refusing. T

We can distribute/decentralize uncoersion through assassination markets, or private bounties on screwing someone else's property, and distribute defence by normalizing gun ownership and auto defense systems. It would add very real costs to being more coersive than someone else.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
March 02, 2014, 06:20:21 PM
Nope.  People are generally okay, but they aren't sufficiently confident in the benevolence of others to extend the necessary degree of cooperation with others in a situation where the other may do damage or make their own contribution worthless.  I wantcommitments from people if I'm going to trust them to cooperate, and without some way to get and enforce long term commitments,  there's not much point in putting any real resources into the public good.  That may not always mean government. But government is what we have now.   A good replacement for it will still require public planning and law enforcement.

Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are new. We've committed to a set of rules about what are legitimate transactions and allowed technology to enforce those rules on ourselves.  But we can still get Goxed, even with everybody following those rules.

We need at least some rules that we can't commit to using just technology. We have to hire some kind of guardian just to enforce the rule about most people being uncoerced most of the time.  And the hell of that is the job can only be done BY coercion of those who would otherwise freely choose to point guns at someone and demand sexual favors on pain of death for refusing. T
newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
February 28, 2014, 11:51:16 PM
No, that is the very problem. IF we want the government to use its force to plan new bridges, put ethanol in gasoline, cleanup from hurricanes, THEN we open ourselves up to people fighting over who gets this government contract, and who gets that regulation that keeps out other competitors.

We should have a perfectly even playing field where nobody gets a favored position from the help of government force over another. Where if people want something they are going to have to get it by voluntary cooperation between themselves - without interference from government force. This even playing field is made from the government using its power of force exclusively for protecting rights, that is, protecting individual property.

legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
February 28, 2014, 11:10:13 PM
The problem is that people think the job of the government is to "help" people.

Dunno 'bout y'all, but that is exactly why I (or we collectively) hired those employees. 

We don't have a problem until they forget who they're working for.

newbie
Activity: 19
Merit: 0
February 28, 2014, 11:01:15 PM
The problem is that people think the job of the government is to "help" people. If people are bribing politicians it is because the politician is able to use the force of the government to give some kind of subsidy to the briber.

The solution is to realize that it is not the purpose of the government to help. The purpose is only to protect private property. This is the rule of law in the capitalist system. The solution would be for the government to be completely out of the business of helping, subsidizing or improving one thing over another.

And enforcing the rule of law is not "helping" because it is not giving advantage to one person over another. There is only the protection of everyone's property.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
February 21, 2014, 08:42:55 AM
I was hoping for a civilised discussion based on reason and science. Calling a group of people "zombies" and "brainwashed" just for the sake of it, without providing any evidence is little more than backyard bullying. If you have an argument, please present it. If you just want to pick up a fight, you will find none Smiley


To whom are your comments directed?
Not sure, but that expresses my sentiments as well.
legendary
Activity: 1500
Merit: 1022
I advocate the Zeitgeist Movement & Venus Project.
February 20, 2014, 07:25:43 PM
I was hoping for a civilised discussion based on reason and science. Calling a group of people "zombies" and "brainwashed" just for the sake of it, without providing any evidence is little more than backyard bullying. If you have an argument, please present it. If you just want to pick up a fight, you will find none Smiley


To whom are your comments directed?
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
February 20, 2014, 05:31:09 PM
I was hoping for a civilised discussion based on reason and science. Calling a group of people "zombies" and "brainwashed" just for the sake of it, without providing any evidence is little more than backyard bullying. If you have an argument, please present it. If you just want to pick up a fight, you will find none Smiley
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
February 20, 2014, 07:00:01 AM
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
February 20, 2014, 04:59:01 AM
Like I said before. Truths a short and simple, only the science can be complex. If your non scientific explanation is s wall of text, it's probably bullshit and not worth reading as a response to a three sentence reply.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
February 20, 2014, 03:28:04 AM
In slavery, the ones in pain are actually the product.
There is a voluntary exchange between the buyer and the seller.


edit:
And it's a fine example of how the efficiency of the market has nothing to do with the 'goodness' of the situation.
This is why science isn't about morality. It would be interesting to see some of these "free marketers" become products themselves. They might provide interesting data.


We would first have to argue that slaves are not people; if slaves are not people, we have no right to call slavery immoral, for one cannot abuse an object lacking its own subject (i.e. damaging someone else's things e.g. it's fine for a person to damage their own property as the subject is okay with this, but wrong to damage another's unless that subject is okay with that; the slave, assuming it is property, has no subject of its own, ergo is not a person.)

If slaves are people, then we must assert that there is a subject involved who does not participate in another's voluntary exchange; if the individual agrees to slavery, he is not a slave (though he may play the role willingly; maybe he's into that), and if the individual does not, then he is being denied his right to his subject and, hopefully, none will agree that this is the righteous path and subsequently help him (sadly, this has hardly been the case considering the past several thousand years.)

Either way, slavery cannot exist within a free market.  There is no situation in which slaves are both people and involuntarily participating within a free market; this is a logical fallacy.  Either the slave is a person to which the slave-owners are wrong and the involuntary trade should be abhorred, or the slave is not a person therefore cannot be considered amongst other human beings as to whether the trade is good or bad for it, just as trading an iPad for however many BTC cannot involve ethics applied to either the iPad or the money, as they have no subject of their own.

The latter can never fit within the realm of ethics because we generally recognize slaves as human.  What we apply to one human, we must apply to another, as we otherwise develop a divide between which groups have rights and which groups do not (i.e. the state and its citizens), which presupposes that there are multiple groups of human beings when there is only one, as Occam's razor shows us.  The latter can only be achieved without human empathy (in which case every individual has their own moral category), but we cannot assume this is the norm, especially among people who bring up slavery as a good example of why free markets are not necessarily right or wrong (this implies slaves are considered people, otherwise it'd be as strange as bringing up a PS3 in this regard, and nobody would understand what was meant.)  We see here that it is illogical to place slaves in their own moral category, as morality, the very foundation of law, becomes null if people can simply decide when morality will apply to them, and when it will not.  Assuming we do want a society of order, then we must adhere to the idea that all people have equal rights; without this, there can be no free market, as there is always a subject, even if they are treated as property, who participates involuntarily, thereby revealing the authority figure necessary for regulated markets thus making the free market void to give way.  This does not mean that every crime nullifies the free market, but it does mean that every crime legitimized shows there are regulatory powers at work: they cannot coexist.

Ergo, for a market to be considered free, it necessitates all subjects claim ownership over their objects, i.e. ownership of their being, their time and energy, and the product of their past efforts, otherwise we are left with objects without subjects, to which other subjects claim ownership i.e. authority, even if temporarily (the core idea behind the regulated market); because there can be no involuntary trade within a free market, every trade is always to the benefit of the individuals involved, otherwise the trade would never occur; following this logic, we can also see that every trade made involuntarily (or trades disallowed by ulterior forces) are to the detriment of the subjects involved, as it steals or suppresses either the subject's time, their personhood, or their property, or all of it.  Even the situation in which a man trades his life and wealth for poison is beneficial for each party as they both get what they wanted (but of course, the man cannot trade his wife or children as this implies they have no subject when they do.)

Anyway, ethics is a science insofar a person understands it; to make a comparison, merely because a person believes 2+2=cupcake does not mean the concept of mathematics is a farce or otherwise inapplicable, it simply means the person isn't versed in concepts of math, and merely because the individual who believes 2+2=cupcake asserts that math is not a science for he can find no constants related to the universe does not mean the constants are not there.  It doesn't stop him from doing so, of course.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
February 20, 2014, 01:58:42 AM
Uh, wasn't Enron an example of regulatory failure? They gamed the regulatory system, bribed the regulators who were supposed to keep them in check, and convinced everyone that everything was OK, because everyone got too dependent on believing regulators. If it wasn't for regulations surrounding Enron, we may not have trusted them as much, would have demanded audits by companies whose reputation was on the line (how badly did US regulator reputation get damaged after that debacle?), and chances are what happened at Enron may not have had the chance to happen in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1000
February 16, 2014, 02:22:58 AM
Quote
This is why science isn't about morality. It would be interesting to see some of these "free marketers" become products themselves. They might provide interesting data.

We're already seeing with just the mere idea of Bitcoin being discussed what happens when a lot of free market 'supporters' are introduced to it, as Max Kaiser said, Bitcoin is a litmus test for people who believe in the free market, or something along those lines Cheesy
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
February 15, 2014, 08:28:56 PM
It's not a matter of belief, it's the limitation of their optics. They operate under presumptions set forth by authorities without question.

Out of curiosity, how are you linking "profit" and "authority?"
Until there is a multidisciplinary correlation supporting the hypothesis that profit is a measure of goodness, it appears to be a fallacy. Fallacies are the bread of authorities. It is far too easy to falsify and support the opposite view that profit leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and someone loses a hand.

That's such a wishy washy statement, anything can lead to pain, are you saying that the act of profit making actually inflicts pain? Can you give an example?
Howabout the obvious one. Slavery.

We're talking about free markets and voluntary exchanges, slavery is not a voluntary exchange.

In slavery, the ones in pain are actually the product.
There is a voluntary exchange between the buyer and the seller.


edit:
And it's a fine example of how the efficiency of the market has nothing to do with the 'goodness' of the situation.
This is why science isn't about morality. It would be interesting to see some of these "free marketers" become products themselves. They might provide interesting data.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
February 15, 2014, 10:16:58 AM
Lobbyists only lobby because government has the power to hand out unfair market advantages to lobbyists, if people don't lobby government then one of their competitors will, it is government that always poisons the incentives in the free market, the government is the source for all the problems because it is government that makes the rules.

Lobbying these days is just an institutionalized form of bribery. It's a legal form of corruption and people are simply corruptable, wether they are from the government or not. Anyone with power will experience this pressure. But to change this you need to make govenment more transparant instead of destroying it.

hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
February 15, 2014, 09:29:37 AM
It's not a matter of belief, it's the limitation of their optics. They operate under presumptions set forth by authorities without question.

Out of curiosity, how are you linking "profit" and "authority?"
Until there is a multidisciplinary correlation supporting the hypothesis that profit is a measure of goodness, it appears to be a fallacy. Fallacies are the bread of authorities. It is far too easy to falsify and support the opposite view that profit leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and someone loses a hand.

That's such a wishy washy statement, anything can lead to pain, are you saying that the act of profit making actually inflicts pain? Can you give an example?
Howabout the obvious one. Slavery.

We're talking about free markets and voluntary exchanges, slavery is not a voluntary exchange.

In slavery, the ones in pain are actually the product.
There is a voluntary exchange between the buyer and the seller.


edit:
And it's a fine example of how the efficiency of the market has nothing to do with the 'goodness' of the situation.
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