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Topic: A short introduction to the Trust System (Read 937 times)

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
May 11, 2019, 08:28:27 AM
#30
Let's say a DefaultTrust member has reached this status by collecting votes from his/her community but has bad intent and uses it to FUD/damage other projects, who and how can such a bad intent be stopped ?
Both DT1 and DT2 members need a net total of 0 or higher in terms of inclusions and exclusions from DT1 members to maintain their status on the default trust network. In other words, if more DT1 members exclude/distrust a user than include/trust a user, than that user will no longer be part of Default Trust.

If you think a Default Trust member is abusing their position by leaving multiple inappropriate ratings, start a thread about it in the Reputation Board and present your evidence. If the evidence stands up to scrutiny, that member will likely rapidly be excluded from the Default Trust network.



Edit for clarity: Disagreeing with a single feedback a DT member has left is not the same as that DT member abusing their position. Simple disagreements are better solved via PMs.
newbie
Activity: 25
Merit: 0
What if there is bad intent and abuse of the DefaultTrust level reached. Such a member can at will mark/FUD projects without any countermeasure ? Let's say a DefaultTrust member has reached this status by collecting votes from his/her community but has bad intent and uses it to FUD/damage other projects, who and how can such a bad intent be stopped ? If anyone expresses a negative vote against such practice, does he/she needs to have some higher merit level before the vote is taken into account ? Can the victim/targetted member also be upvoted by his community to counter such an 'elite' negative vote, do they need to have higher voting levels ? 
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 17, 2019, 09:15:14 AM
#28
Being lazy, I've simply included the paragraph:
Actually, that's not true, a score of 0 will still keep Eve on the list, only a negative score, i.e. more people distrusting Eve than trusting her will lead to her exclusion.
I'll leave the example with only two lists standing for simplicity's sake, though.

It would kind of defeat the purpose of my "short" introduction to the Trust System if I were to explain every little detail. Wink
May I edit it a bit to make it shorter again? Like this:
The final Trust List that the forum's software will generate will now look like this:
* DefaultTrust
* Alice
* Bob
* Carol
* Dan
* Frank
* Grace
* Eve

Those are the people whose judgment you trust for the moment.
All Feedback left by those users will be taken into account to calculate the Trust Score you'll see displayed.
Of course, your own Feedback will be taken into account as well.

You might have noticed that Eve doesn't show up still shows up in the final list.
The reason is simply that Eve is added "positively" to the Trust List of Alice, but at the same time, by the prefix "~", Bob tells us that he explicitly distrusts the judgment of Eve.
The software will now calculate "+ Eve" and "- Eve", which equals "Zero Eve", so Eve won't show up. To remove Eve, someone else has to add "- Eve" too.
Actually, that's not true, a score of 0 will still keep Eve on the list, only a negative score, i.e. more people distrusting Eve than trusting her will lead to her exclusion.
I'll leave the example with only two lists standing for simplicity's sake, though.
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
January 17, 2019, 07:45:04 AM
#27
Can you still update it though, considering how many people don't understand the details already.
Being lazy, I've simply included the paragraph:
Actually, that's not true, a score of 0 will still keep Eve on the list, only a negative score, i.e. more people distrusting Eve than trusting her will lead to her exclusion.
I'll leave the example with only two lists standing for simplicity's sake, though.

It would kind of defeat the purpose of my "short" introduction to the Trust System if I were to explain every little detail. Wink
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
January 17, 2019, 06:42:13 AM
#26
Seems that if I have only put 11 members on my trust list, then my 51 votes would get divided evenly amongst those 11 members.  4.636 votes per member (51/11)
You get only 1 vote per member.


Ok.  Thanks for the further clarification.

To maximize my vote, I should make sure that I have 51 members in my trust list (otherwise I am not using those extra 40 votes, currently).  Apparently,  currently, my two supervotes are being randomly assigned - currently 2/11 probability, but if I go to 51 members in my customized trustlist, then those two supervotes will be randomly assigned based on a 2/51 probability?
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 17, 2019, 05:49:39 AM
#25
Seems that if I have only put 11 members on my trust list, then my 51 votes would get divided evenly amongst those 11 members.  4.636 votes per member (51/11)
You get only 1 vote per member.
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
January 17, 2019, 05:46:50 AM
#24
1) Currently, I have a total of 513 earned merits (I guess earned since 1/24/18), so does that mean that I can cast 51 regular votes and 2 super votes ?  (assuming that each additional vote is earned after the threshold of 10 and 250)?  

2) You seem to assert that I can only cast those votes by making a custom portion of the trust list (perhaps keeping default trust in there, too?)?

3) So far, in the past, few hours, I have only made a custom list that includes 11 members, but if I continue to add to my custom trust list, then each of them will count as a vote until I reach 51 members?  

4) If I make a custom list that includes more than 51 members, then only the first 51 would be counted as votes, or how does that work?

5) How about the 2 supervotes?  How do I label or distinguish the supervotes, if I am understanding this correctly from theymos mentioning the number of votes that each member gets?  

6) Can I change my votes with the passage of time at any time that I want?  Presumably my earned merits will continue to increase and allow me to add more votes with the passage of time?  (I assume that some of the vote criteria might change with the passage of time, too, but that seems to be another set of questions for another day).
1) Correct.
2) Correct
3) Correct
4) No. You can't order them:
~the system tries to distribute the votes such that the greatest number of people would be included in DT1 at the end. If there's still contention (or if my algorithm behaves sub-optimally), then it's chosen randomly among the remaining options. But this is a bit rare: if DT1 was constructed now, no randomness would be involved, since all contention would be resolvable without it.
5) I guess it's the same as 4).
6) Changes to your own trust list are applied instantly. Changes to DT1 happen once per month (and theymos can change this frequency).

A user needs more exclusions than inclusions to be excluded.
Dammit, you're right. Now I need to have a third example list to make it work. Roll Eyes
Shame on you! Tongue
Don't shoot the messenger Tongue Can you still update it though, considering how many people don't understand the details already.

Thanks Loyce.

Your responses seems to show that largely, I am thinking in the right direction, even though I still feel a bit uncomfortable with my understanding. 

Seems that if I have only put 11 members on my trust list, then my 51 votes would get divided evenly amongst those 11 members.  4.636 votes per member (51/11) (something like that), and the two supervotes might either get assigned in whole based on fraction, such as .1818 per member or randomly assigned, which would then only go to two members (randomly).  Actually it seems best if theymos were to create a fractionalized assignment of votes rather than random assignment of whole votes (whether the algorithm can be programed in such a way would be for him to disclose). 

As I am thinking about this and typing, it seems that out of fairness, supervotes could be fractionally assigned, as well (perhaps once the 250 threshold is achieved), so maybe instead of having 2 supervotes, I would have 2.052 supervotes based on my 513/250), and those 2.052 supervotes would just be distributed among my 11 members (which would be .1865 supervotes per member = 2.052/11).  I understand that traditionally DT had been dealing with whole numbers because of the inclusion or exclusion based on whole numbers, but I don't see why such inclusion/exclusion could still not be placed in the algorithm with thresholds established too regarding if inclusions outnumber the exclusions then would be on the list (could round up or down to whole numbers in order to keep it less confusing).
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 17, 2019, 05:20:13 AM
#23
1) Currently, I have a total of 513 earned merits (I guess earned since 1/24/18), so does that mean that I can cast 51 regular votes and 2 super votes ?  (assuming that each additional vote is earned after the threshold of 10 and 250)?  

2) You seem to assert that I can only cast those votes by making a custom portion of the trust list (perhaps keeping default trust in there, too?)?

3) So far, in the past, few hours, I have only made a custom list that includes 11 members, but if I continue to add to my custom trust list, then each of them will count as a vote until I reach 51 members?  

4) If I make a custom list that includes more than 51 members, then only the first 51 would be counted as votes, or how does that work?

5) How about the 2 supervotes?  How do I label or distinguish the supervotes, if I am understanding this correctly from theymos mentioning the number of votes that each member gets?  

6) Can I change my votes with the passage of time at any time that I want?  Presumably my earned merits will continue to increase and allow me to add more votes with the passage of time?  (I assume that some of the vote criteria might change with the passage of time, too, but that seems to be another set of questions for another day).
1) Correct.
2) Correct.
3) Correct.
4) No. You can't order them:
~the system tries to distribute the votes such that the greatest number of people would be included in DT1 at the end. If there's still contention (or if my algorithm behaves sub-optimally), then it's chosen randomly among the remaining options. But this is a bit rare: if DT1 was constructed now, no randomness would be involved, since all contention would be resolvable without it.
5) I guess it's the same as 4).
6) Changes to your own trust list are applied instantly. Changes to DT1 happen once per month (and theymos can change this frequency).

A user needs more exclusions than inclusions to be excluded.
Dammit, you're right. Now I need to have a third example list to make it work. Roll Eyes
Shame on you! Tongue
Don't shoot the messenger Tongue Can you still update it though, considering how many people don't understand the details already.
legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
January 17, 2019, 04:55:32 AM
#22
Caveat: I'm not 100% sure if I understand the new system in its entirety so far.
Also, the system seems to still be undergoing change Roll Eyes

So how are users chosen for DefaultTrust?

In the past, our benevolent forum dictator theymos simply appointed the users in DefaultTrust by decree.
That was, to put it mildly, a constant source of criticism and bickering.
On January 10, 2019, Skynet woke up a new system was set up, which is based in part on the merit system.

Simply put, users on DefaultTrust are "voted" for by the users of bitcointalk.
A user needs to have earned 10 merit before being eligible to vote.
"Super-Voters" are users who have earned 250 merit.
(if voting for someone, the number of merit you've received from that specific person is not counted)

To cast a vote you have to include the name of the user into your own Trust List.

To be elected, you need at least 10 votes of "simple" voters and 2 votes of Super-Voters.
That will make you a "candidate".

You'll also have to meet a few more requirements:
- be at least "Member"
- been online in the last three days
- have posted in the last 30 days
- maintain a Trust List with at least 10 entries (not counting "~"-entries)
- not be banned
- not be on some kind of blacklist (maintained in secret by theymos?)

Once elected in this fashion, you will show up on DefaultTrust.
If other users on DefaultTrust vote you out with a "~", though, that might lead to your exclusion.


For you as a regular user wanting to have a say in who goes onto DefaultTrust, all this means:
Earn at least 10 merit yourself, or even better, 250 merit!
Maintain your Trust List!
That's the only way your vote counts!


A personal plea by me: please consider taking users of local boards into your Trust Lists, even if you don't understand the gibberish they call their "language".
How to find out who's a good user? Well, ask around!
The local boards need strong trust networks, and in many cases they have no lobby here. Thank you.

qwk (or anyone else who has some insight into this matter):  I am a little confused about the trust voting method that you (qwk) outlined, how many votes I get under such new rules, and also how the votes are tallied. 

Time permitting, I am still reading (again) through the earlier pages of theymos's default trust changes announcement thread, so perhaps some of my questions are going to be answered there, before they are answered here?

1) Currently, I have a total of 513 earned merits (I guess earned since 1/24/18), so does that mean that I can cast 51 regular votes and 2 super votes ?  (assuming that each additional vote is earned after the threshold of 10 and 250)? 

2) You seem to assert that I can only cast those votes by making a custom portion of the trust list (perhaps keeping default trust in there, too?)?

3) So far, in the past, few hours, I have only made a custom list that includes 11 members, but if I continue to add to my custom trust list, then each of them will count as a vote until I reach 51 members? 

4) If I make a custom list that includes more than 51 members, then only the first 51 would be counted as votes, or how does that work?

5) How about the 2 supervotes?  How do I label or distinguish the supervotes, if I am understanding this correctly from theymos mentioning the number of votes that each member gets

6) Can I change my votes with the passage of time at any time that I want?  Presumably my earned merits will continue to increase and allow me to add more votes with the passage of time?  (I assume that some of the vote criteria might change with the passage of time, too, but that seems to be another set of questions for another day).
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1828
January 13, 2019, 03:48:52 PM
#21
(As an aside, I'm having difficulty determining what pronoun to use when referring to Lauda and suchmoon. Him, her, they?  Cheesy)

Why limit verself to only 3 pronouns? I respond to any of these:







I guess as a member of the LBGT(lots of letters after that) community, I know the T(lots of letters after that) are getting a bit touchy. However, it's nice to know that you really couldn't care less.
legendary
Activity: 3654
Merit: 8909
https://bpip.org
January 13, 2019, 02:54:54 PM
#20
(As an aside, I'm having difficulty determining what pronoun to use when referring to Lauda and suchmoon. Him, her, they?  Cheesy)

Why limit verself to only 3 pronouns? I respond to any of these:





Re local boards: generally I don't care where you're from but I need to be able to understand you in order to include you in my trust list. I don't think that's a high bar. I could not include people based on hearsay/reputation/etc. But I think it's easier to have bilingual "bridges" between English and local boards with regards to trust than it is e.g. with merit. Merit sources need to bee in local boards constantly whereas DT inclusions require less maintenance.
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
January 13, 2019, 02:09:36 PM
#19
For example, I currently have 260 merits. I could add suchmoon to my trust list. However, suchmoon is one of my merit fans. So if I deduct suchmoon's merits, I only have 211 merits with respect to my vote for suchmoon, so my inclusion of suchmoon would not count in respect to that user for the 2 members with 250 merit.
BTW, that's probably something that might be troubling local communities as well.
Just for example, I'm a major source of merit for the German board, so many of the 250+ers there received a lot of their merit from me, bringing their merit "weight" when it comes to voting for me below 250.
All my evil plans of world domination foiled! Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1828
January 13, 2019, 01:49:47 PM
#18
I predicted this would happen:
I can imagine other communities will make their own DT1 "clique": for example a group of Russians, a group of Indonesians and a group of bounty hunters. As long as they stay out of each other's hair, they can co-exist. The moment they touch, it feels like a black hole collision competing for exclusions.
I don't see too many risks involved with that happening.

Let's assume "the Russians" manage to come up with 2 250+ merit users and a decent number of 10+s.
They vote one or two of their respected fellow Russians into DT1, let's call them Yuri and Ivan (am I being racist? Grin).
Now, Yuri and Ivan maintain their respective Trust Lists in a "good" way, no problem.
If, OTOH, Yuri and Ivan start including scammers or shady members of the Russian mob into their Trust List, I doubt that will go unnoticed by their fellow DT1ers (most likely, complaints would start flooding Meta).
With ~s from DT1ers accumulating, they'd be off DT1 before anything really bad happens.

Also, from what I think I know about people in general, someone being voted into DT1 will try and behave in a manner that will keep him in position. It may not necessarily be a matter of pride, but being kicked out is still something humans usually have a dislike for.

At the same time, I doubt that a small group of Russians or, e.g. Germans could ever overwhelm DT1.
Inter-DT1-Trust-Lists will confirm the "seats" of reliable DT1ers against any attempt by a small enough group to kick them out.

Long story short: I strongly believe that "local" DT1ers won't cause much trouble.

Furthermore, there is an additional stipulation in the 2 250+ merit rule.


 - You must have at least 2 people directly trusting you with an earned merit of at least 250, not including merit you yourself sent.


For example, I currently have 260 merits. I could add suchmoon to my trust list. However, suchmoon is one of my merit fans. So if I deduct suchmoon's merits, I only have 211 merits with respect to my vote for suchmoon, so my inclusion of suchmoon would not count in respect to that user for the 2 members with 250 merit. You'd need a wider network of users in order to get your puppets into DT1.
(As an aside, I'm having difficulty determining what pronoun to use when referring to Lauda and suchmoon. Him, her, they?  Cheesy)
qwk
donator
Activity: 3542
Merit: 3413
Shitcoin Minimalist
January 13, 2019, 01:12:13 PM
#17
I predicted this would happen:
I can imagine other communities will make their own DT1 "clique": for example a group of Russians, a group of Indonesians and a group of bounty hunters. As long as they stay out of each other's hair, they can co-exist. The moment they touch, it feels like a black hole collision competing for exclusions.
I don't see too many risks involved with that happening.

Let's assume "the Russians" manage to come up with 2 250+ merit users and a decent number of 10+s.
They vote one or two of their respected fellow Russians into DT1, let's call them Yuri and Ivan (am I being racist? Grin).
Now, Yuri and Ivan maintain their respective Trust Lists in a "good" way, no problem.
If, OTOH, Yuri and Ivan start including scammers or shady members of the Russian mob into their Trust List, I doubt that will go unnoticed by their fellow DT1ers (most likely, complaints would start flooding Meta).
With ~s from DT1ers accumulating, they'd be off DT1 before anything really bad happens.

Also, from what I think I know about people in general, someone being voted into DT1 will try and behave in a manner that will keep him in position. It may not necessarily be a matter of pride, but being kicked out is still something humans usually have a dislike for.

At the same time, I doubt that a small group of Russians or, e.g. Germans could ever overwhelm DT1.
Inter-DT1-Trust-Lists will confirm the "seats" of reliable DT1ers against any attempt by a small enough group to kick them out.

Long story short: I strongly believe that "local" DT1ers won't cause much trouble.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 13, 2019, 12:04:07 PM
#16
That's indeed a good method for determining who to trust. That is, if you want to be scammed. I'm not surprised by a local board's community's inability to properly use this system though.
I predicted this would happen:
I can imagine other communities will make their own DT1 "clique": for example a group of Russians, a group of Indonesians and a group of bounty hunters. As long as they stay out of each other's hair, they can co-exist. The moment they touch, it feels like a black hole collision competing for exclusions.
It's the new reality:
Unlike the previous policy, I will not generally be trying to cultivate a good list; that will be left to the DT1 members themselves. However, I reserve the right to remove you and blacklist you from future selection if you engage in egregious and obvious abuse, or if multiple known alt accounts could be selected.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
January 13, 2019, 11:46:16 AM
#15
Based on what? Random users that never traded and/or never sent almost any feedback to others? Great idea. Roll Eyes
There is such a thing - reputation. We choose users who have earned the respect of many users of the Russian local Board.
That's indeed a good method for determining who to trust. That is, if you want to be scammed. I'm not surprised by a local board's community's inability to properly use this system though.
member
Activity: 193
Merit: 70
January 13, 2019, 11:41:50 AM
#14
Based on what? Random users that never traded and/or never sent almost any feedback to others? Great idea. Roll Eyes

There is such a thing - reputation. We choose users who have earned the respect of many users of the Russian local Board.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
January 13, 2019, 11:35:14 AM
#13
A personal plea by me: please consider taking users of local boards into your Trust Lists, even if you don't understand the gibberish they call their "language".
How to find out who's a good user? Well, ask around!
The local boards need strong trust networks, and in many cases they have no lobby here. Thank you.
Right now we are trying to create a local network of trust in the Russian section, but there is no success yet. Too few users have scored more than 250 Merit.
[Challenge] Create your Trust list
Based on what? Random users that never traded and/or never sent almost any feedback to others?

member
Activity: 193
Merit: 70
January 13, 2019, 11:31:59 AM
#12
A personal plea by me: please consider taking users of local boards into your Trust Lists, even if you don't understand the gibberish they call their "language".
How to find out who's a good user? Well, ask around!
The local boards need strong trust networks, and in many cases they have no lobby here. Thank you.

Right now we are trying to create a local network of trust in the Russian section, but there is no success yet:

[Challenge] Create your Trust list

Too few users have scored more than 250 Merit. While involved only one such user: Alex_Sr
legendary
Activity: 3570
Merit: 1959
January 13, 2019, 12:10:02 AM
#11
Just keep  your default on 2. Otherwise, you are dealing with more (or less)! shit than you need to. Grin

Qwk - great post! Cheesy   
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