Topic: About KNCminer (Read 1609 times)
I hope KnC Miner is all good, we'll see...
im think knc delivery 
This is mostly being discussed over at https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/about-kncminer-228068 (my thread) SwedEric is on there now.
Thinking of setting up a meeting with them this summer since I may travel to their city. Will post a thread if I do 
Interesting post. Did ORSoC ever do a press-release regarding the failed project and where the funding went?
As far as I know, there was press release. This was not preorders as in the knc case, it was more of "donations", however the donations went directly to orsoc and it could be that they gave away some pcb:s in the end to a few of the top donnors. Info should be out there.
I just think the campaign was quite similar, lot of marketing hype and very few technical details.
Also, what is your relationship to ORSoC?
I like to be anonymous, but I can just say that I work in the same field as they and has known about the company and persons from some time, but as I mentioned, they are quite well known for their behaviour in the local industry.
According to a very recent local news article, they claim to have received enough money from existing orders to start production....... I have NOT done any .28nm tape outs, but just to get an idea of costs, have a look at page 4 on the following pdf:
http://www.arena-international.com/Journals/2012/03/16/s/i/l/3_Xilinx.pdf
...sure, there is many ways to reduce the costs and this will be a very simple design, but I would expect them to need AT LEAST _a few_ million USD:s to do this. This makes me very sceptical! What is the harm in being open about these numbers?
Anyway, I may soon be out of newbie status and can then post a little in the other forums....
KNCminer new？
Found the threads about KNCminer on this forum and since I know a little about this company. Well actually the formal company "kncminer" is soo new so the one I know about is orsoc, which is
one of it's two parent companies. The other parent company that is owned by two guys do I not know much about, but they does not seem to be have with anything similar in the past, but has worked in the financial sector...
I created an account and will post what I know. I saw a good summary posted by someone who attended the "openday":
I can just confirm everything above and start with the "posstive" things. I do not know the relation between ORSoC or KnCMiner, but I can confirm that ORSoC has been around for quite some time and has made profit in the last 3-5 years. In range of $80k-$250k. They do various things but profile themselfe as fpga consultants. I honestly do not belive that they are trying to make an obvious scam (like; scam people and flee the country), but I would NEVER pay a single dollar in advance. See below for reasons;
They have a history with the "openrisc" cpu that they have been promoting for many years. People who are paying them for a-yet-to-be-produced asic should know that this is not the first time they are collecting money in advance for an asic design. Previous try was with a promise to produce an openrisc cpu (at a MUCH less advance process than .28), they gathered some money from the community (the "campaign" may still be active, I do not know, google for it!). However, when the project did not take off, I think most of the money just went into their company...
As far as I know there was nu public records for the accounting, allthought it was "pitched" as a "community project".
Among other local companies within the same sector, they are quite well known for being "close to impossible to work with" and quite a few companies has bad relations with them. Ask around!!!
My personal belief is some of the people have little touch with reality and tends to be better on producing visions rather than code/hw! That's why I said above that I do not thing they are doing an "obvious scam", but I fear that the result may be the same.
Among the five people listed I think would say that four of them are 100% "non-technical". I guess others are also working in producing working code. To my knowledge no one has ever been involved in asic production before (I could be wrong on this) and they are now about to go directly to a 28nm tape out... . Yeah right!
But since there are quite a few "non-technical" people on the project (at least relativly) I'm not suprised that they do a good job in marketing and come out with new ideas about lotto and other stuff instead of actually showing working stuff.
Or is it 100% confirmed that the mars prototype is actually is working a specified speed??! If soo, why is it not up for sale?
Some other thoughts and things I would think is an absolute must before even going public with something like this:
* I read about canceling mars.... well, if you can not even meet deadlines or results on the fpga, why even bother moving along to an asic? It's a bit contradictive when they claim they basically will use the same pcb for asic as fpga, but they need to focus on asic. To my knowledge it more or less standard to verify that the design is working in fpga (at much lower clock/density) before moving to asic. Why not release this then if it's so magical... Even if the fpga is working PERFECTLY it's a LONG way before doing a tape out (escpecially at 28nm)...
* At least a few people with experince of asic production.
* SOME budget that at least shows that there is a possibility that they can handle a production run at 28nm.... Are you guys aware of the HUGE costs involved??! My guess would be several millions of USD.... however, I have not either done anything similar so it's a guess, but should at least give SOME indication.
* + Some financial backing for doing a tape out at 28nm.... not just relying on massive preorders.
* + some proof that the company and owners really risk their own money, not money collected from users preorders
* It's not that many FAB:s that do 28nm, is it public who they will use? If not, if this is legit, why should it be keept secret? All chip manufactures are quite open about who produce their devices.
Well, these are just my thought, based on what I know and heard from others in the industry. Sure it would be cool if they could produce such a device, but I highly doubt it based on what I know and have read about kncminer. If it sounds to good to be true, it is probably to good to be true.
one of it's two parent companies. The other parent company that is owned by two guys do I not know much about, but they does not seem to be have with anything similar in the past, but has worked in the financial sector...
I created an account and will post what I know. I saw a good summary posted by someone who attended the "openday":
Quote
There's just not much info to tell.
Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.
Is ORSoC a legit company? Yes it is.
Is ORSoC's area of expertise desgning FPGAs, ASICs and embedded systems? Yes it is.
Is there a working FPGA prototype hashing at 6.2GH/s? Yes there is.
Is there an ASIC prototype? No there isn't.
What's the plan? To make the ASIC from the FPGA, order the chips with preorder money, and send them directly to assembly.
Are there any gerbers for the ASIC PCB's, etc. that can be showed to us? No, they say they ASIC PCBs will be just based on the FPGA PCBs.
Is this feasible? Mmmm, yeah, why not. That was BFL's plan too - right?
Is this extremely expensive, knowing they are planning to do 28nm? Yes it is. VERY expensive.
Is this project at least x10 bigger in terms of revenue streams, etc. compared to anything else ORSoC has done before? Yes it is. It's a huge project for a tiny company.
Are ORSoC part of KnCMiner? Yes they are.
Is ORSoC a legit company? Yes it is.
Is ORSoC's area of expertise desgning FPGAs, ASICs and embedded systems? Yes it is.
Is there a working FPGA prototype hashing at 6.2GH/s? Yes there is.
Is there an ASIC prototype? No there isn't.
What's the plan? To make the ASIC from the FPGA, order the chips with preorder money, and send them directly to assembly.
Are there any gerbers for the ASIC PCB's, etc. that can be showed to us? No, they say they ASIC PCBs will be just based on the FPGA PCBs.
Is this feasible? Mmmm, yeah, why not. That was BFL's plan too - right?
Is this extremely expensive, knowing they are planning to do 28nm? Yes it is. VERY expensive.
Is this project at least x10 bigger in terms of revenue streams, etc. compared to anything else ORSoC has done before? Yes it is. It's a huge project for a tiny company.
I can just confirm everything above and start with the "posstive" things. I do not know the relation between ORSoC or KnCMiner, but I can confirm that ORSoC has been around for quite some time and has made profit in the last 3-5 years. In range of $80k-$250k. They do various things but profile themselfe as fpga consultants. I honestly do not belive that they are trying to make an obvious scam (like; scam people and flee the country), but I would NEVER pay a single dollar in advance. See below for reasons;
They have a history with the "openrisc" cpu that they have been promoting for many years. People who are paying them for a-yet-to-be-produced asic should know that this is not the first time they are collecting money in advance for an asic design. Previous try was with a promise to produce an openrisc cpu (at a MUCH less advance process than .28), they gathered some money from the community (the "campaign" may still be active, I do not know, google for it!). However, when the project did not take off, I think most of the money just went into their company...
As far as I know there was nu public records for the accounting, allthought it was "pitched" as a "community project".
Among other local companies within the same sector, they are quite well known for being "close to impossible to work with" and quite a few companies has bad relations with them. Ask around!!!
My personal belief is some of the people have little touch with reality and tends to be better on producing visions rather than code/hw! That's why I said above that I do not thing they are doing an "obvious scam", but I fear that the result may be the same.
Among the five people listed I think would say that four of them are 100% "non-technical". I guess others are also working in producing working code. To my knowledge no one has ever been involved in asic production before (I could be wrong on this) and they are now about to go directly to a 28nm tape out... . Yeah right!
But since there are quite a few "non-technical" people on the project (at least relativly) I'm not suprised that they do a good job in marketing and come out with new ideas about lotto and other stuff instead of actually showing working stuff.
Or is it 100% confirmed that the mars prototype is actually is working a specified speed??! If soo, why is it not up for sale?
Some other thoughts and things I would think is an absolute must before even going public with something like this:
* I read about canceling mars.... well, if you can not even meet deadlines or results on the fpga, why even bother moving along to an asic? It's a bit contradictive when they claim they basically will use the same pcb for asic as fpga, but they need to focus on asic. To my knowledge it more or less standard to verify that the design is working in fpga (at much lower clock/density) before moving to asic. Why not release this then if it's so magical... Even if the fpga is working PERFECTLY it's a LONG way before doing a tape out (escpecially at 28nm)...
* At least a few people with experince of asic production.
* SOME budget that at least shows that there is a possibility that they can handle a production run at 28nm.... Are you guys aware of the HUGE costs involved??! My guess would be several millions of USD.... however, I have not either done anything similar so it's a guess, but should at least give SOME indication.
* + Some financial backing for doing a tape out at 28nm.... not just relying on massive preorders.
* + some proof that the company and owners really risk their own money, not money collected from users preorders
* It's not that many FAB:s that do 28nm, is it public who they will use? If not, if this is legit, why should it be keept secret? All chip manufactures are quite open about who produce their devices.
Well, these are just my thought, based on what I know and heard from others in the industry. Sure it would be cool if they could produce such a device, but I highly doubt it based on what I know and have read about kncminer. If it sounds to good to be true, it is probably to good to be true.
Interesting post. Did ORSoC ever do a press-release regarding the failed project and where the funding went?
Also, what is your relationship to ORSoC?
I think (for what it's worth) they are actually going to deliver the ASICs.
Also, if you are an EU company, you save on 23% VAT.
Also, if you are an EU company, you save on 23% VAT.
Sounds sketchy to me.
KNCminer ive never used.
Thanks for sharing the information
thanks for sharing the info with the rest of us.
I was about to process the payment, but knowing that they are more of a sales company than a tech company I will invest my coins elsewhere.
/cheers
I was about to process the payment, but knowing that they are more of a sales company than a tech company I will invest my coins elsewhere.
/cheers
I'll bet up to one BTC that you will not regret that decission! Let me know if accept!
BTW: A betting service for such things would be super. There could I earn some real BTC!!! Anyone know if it exists?
I personally would not mind preorder but i think two things are mandatory:
1.
Your really need to trust the ones you are doing business with, either by personal knowledge or proved track record for similar projects before.
knc fails on both of these points for me.
2.
You have to produce a public plan and budget (and do a little bit of community communication) that looks reasonable and trustworthy.
knc fails here as well.
sure things MAY be a success even if above is not fullfilled, but I think in this case it's more of that the buyers (and sellers) WANT it to be a success...
If Mars is performing to spec. and is working today (PCB and SW was finished if I understood everything correct?!), they could earn shitloads of money by selling these devices since they would still be supperior to many other sollutions that is not even shipping.... I really do not buy the argument on focusing on an asic... IF they actually has a booked slot in a fab (which I seriosly doubt), then would they now have quite some time while waiting for that slot and it's production to ship out other devices....
1.
Your really need to trust the ones you are doing business with, either by personal knowledge or proved track record for similar projects before.
knc fails on both of these points for me.
2.
You have to produce a public plan and budget (and do a little bit of community communication) that looks reasonable and trustworthy.
knc fails here as well.
sure things MAY be a success even if above is not fullfilled, but I think in this case it's more of that the buyers (and sellers) WANT it to be a success...
If Mars is performing to spec. and is working today (PCB and SW was finished if I understood everything correct?!), they could earn shitloads of money by selling these devices since they would still be supperior to many other sollutions that is not even shipping.... I really do not buy the argument on focusing on an asic... IF they actually has a booked slot in a fab (which I seriosly doubt), then would they now have quite some time while waiting for that slot and it's production to ship out other devices....
thanks for sharing the info with the rest of us.
I was about to process the payment, but knowing that they are more of a sales company than a tech company I will invest my coins elsewhere.
/cheers
I was about to process the payment, but knowing that they are more of a sales company than a tech company I will invest my coins elsewhere.
/cheers
fantastic post, really comprehensive breakdown.
Personally i think this whole preorder business model is no good for us miners. I have no worries about orcsoc being able to deliver an asic chip but going for 28nm for september is a push.
Personally i am on the preorder list somewhere in the 200's and had plans to buy a few jupiters. The 7 day pay now with no notice, no product means myself and my group are not going to invest in Knc miner. I hope they produce the units they have promised to the public as its only good for bitcoin but i do worry....
Personally i think this whole preorder business model is no good for us miners. I have no worries about orcsoc being able to deliver an asic chip but going for 28nm for september is a push.
Personally i am on the preorder list somewhere in the 200's and had plans to buy a few jupiters. The 7 day pay now with no notice, no product means myself and my group are not going to invest in Knc miner. I hope they produce the units they have promised to the public as its only good for bitcoin but i do worry....
Yes, please crosspost... I still have to be logged in for two more hours... 
There is quite a few things I read there that I could/would like to comment on, but it's not possible now..
There is quite a few things I read there that I could/would like to comment on, but it's not possible now..
Done https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/about-kncminer-228068
Hopefully you will be whitelisted now this is more visible.
Yes, please crosspost... I still have to be logged in for two more hours...
There is quite a few things I read there that I could/would like to comment on, but it's not possible now..
There is quite a few things I read there that I could/would like to comment on, but it's not possible now..
This would be very useful on the Custom Hardware forum. I can cross-post a copy if you're not whilelisted soonish.
(Waiting on response).
(Waiting on response).
Please explain more of the delay.
Uhm, what delay?
Please explain more of the delay.
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