Topic: Alternatives to the new OzCoin 3% DGM Fee (Read 4403 times)

There's no need to keep this thread running. Its old news and we all moved on since a month ago.

That has been there as long as I can remember. A private limited corporation. That doesn't mean non-profit, doesn't mean hobby.

I understand where you are coming from; that based on a price comparison, Oczo is only middle of the pack. You can find cheaper pools. However, Ozco probably did a similar survey before setting their price, and decided on 3%. The reasons for that 3% or the previous 0% are really irrelevant to users. They gave plenty of notice of the fee, and seems to have been more than fair.

Your comments of them running at 0% or credit card companies offering teaser rates are irrelevant. If you feel so strongly against such promotions, you may chose not to partake.

understood, and I do regret a statement I made when ill and very tired under some stress and felt like I was being attacked wrongfully at 3am ish one morning
I don't claim to be anything but human
best wishes
Graeme

I know you did, I followed the whole thread (and other similar), just that it was one of those things that makes you go hmm...
Sometimes one of those little things is just enough to make up someone's mind.

I have no hard feelings against Graet, we've both had our moments here in this thread.  The fact of the matter is we are both mature individuals and realize we make mistakes and own up to them.

go back one page and see that I apologised, the OP has changed a lot too as has the topic - I'll make no judgements
you can make any you feel like

That was kinda low, I am starting to have second thoughts about all this...

dont make me come to your house! 

Those pools are not true zero fee pools. They keep transaction fees. This is like a 0.3% fee currently and after the reward halving happens (with tx fees also going up) will probably be like a 1% fee. Even though I run a real zero fee pool and think their advertisement is bullshit, I have to say that a small fee is not the end of the world if you like the pool.

I don't get the anger some people have with Graet or indeed anyone who might make a buck in the Bitcoin community. If everything was free we wouldn't need money, would we? Then what is the point of Bitcoin.

Do you get angry when you think about that he might not just break even but could get profits close to minimum wage for his and others' work on the pool?

If you go into a McDonald's and buy a hamburger do you get angry at the employees because they are paid so much money and inflate the price of your burger?

in June last year Ozcoin opened as a 2%fee pool, within 2 weeks it was obvious that being among a swarm of new pools we would need to drop the fee to get anywhere. The longer term miners might remember some of those pools, only a couple remain.I have some theories on this. but its not today's subject.

when we opened DGM with yourbtc.com frontend there was a default 2% donation setting - we missed when setting up, we were quickly told by users we were trying to "trick " them into donating, so we removed it - just cant win either way by the look.

I have always encouraged and thanked donors, unfortunately even after that post the donations maxed at 0.6% still well under 1.5% (the difference for those months added up)
I don't make a big thing of it but I regularly donate to different BTC projects that I get value from - to me its just a respect thing. I guess my biggest mistake was hoping the majority of miners on the pool showed the same sort of respect to me. once again thanks to those that do

when I made the post quoting 1.5% we had 1/2 as many servers and about 1/3 the hashrate, ASICs werent on the horizon etc etc etc, stuff changes fast in Bitcoinworld.  since I announced fees my costs have changed, AU host has informed me that my traffic costs for next month have gone up $250.

apart from that I have posted the same stuff over and over, no point repeating it again.

I know its no excuse,
but I announced fees,
got the flu,
got abusive emails,
got 4 hours sleep,
got ddossed
more abusive emails
found out the pool didnt cope with the ddos and wanted to pay out 4 x each on 9 blocks
had a stinking headache
got 4 hours sleep
tried to placate unpaid miners
did what I could to get problem resolved
tried to explain my reasoning for fees to miners
got 1/2 of the payout problem fixed
got 4 hours sleep
was awake when payout problem fixed to top up wallet so miners would get backpay asap
continued trying to explain to miners my reasoning for a fee
had 1/2 an interesting conversation with a guy in irc (unfortunately I was a bit busy with fixing my wife's business mobile to stop and pay full attention)
came to forum found FUD thread
had 5 hours sleep
woke up to find FUD thread tile and OP changed
still have the flu
In between I have helped my wife with her busy dog walking business, cared for our 2 children, fixed a mates PC, had one 4 card mining rig crash and not had time to troubleshoot, and more

so if I seem to have been a bit grumpy....
all I can do is apologise

Just one question, would you have been so angry if I had closed the pool and paid out miners, cloned the software and opened up the next day as a 3% fee pool?

That change may be an attempt by BTCMine to regain some of the hashrate they lost over the last 12 months. I think it's more like a last ditch effort to get new miners on board.

BTCMine used to be a significant proportion of the network hashrate but the 'c' value they use for their score method is too low so miners get too much variance. And the pool is still hoppable.

Fair enough response

Interestingly enough, I've actually watched one of the smaller pools http://btcmine.com/ go from fee based backwards to donation only.  That was my first pool getting into BTC, so it has some sentimental value to me

Oh and by the way, I love how they operate, check out this post: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1064554


Now... how come this didn't / wouldn't have worked for OzCoin (with the exception of making the default 3%)?  Did they just not consider it or think of this before going mandatory, or have they tried setting a default already and had it not work for them?  

Situations change, and larger pools need more management. Arsbitcoin failed. MtRed has had more downtime as they've increased in hashrate.

It's clear that Graet was at a point where he'd have to end Ozcoin as we know it, or he'd need help from all miners to make it a full time proposition. I don't think any pool op maintains a pool as a hobby. And would you want a hobbyist as a pool op? Honestly, would you mine somewhere that could disappear with your unpaid shares tomorrow?

I think you'll find that many smaller pools that are donation only now will become fee only pools in future as they obtain more hashrate and workload for the pool op increases. They might also not want to add a fee, and I'm sure Graet didn't want to either.

p2pool seems to be an alright pool if you don't mind a bit more variance than you've had at ozcoin/emc(it's pplns not dgm). It can also be 0% fee if you want..

Read his most recent post on the ozcoin thread.  There's a lot of money involved in running ozcoin.  I doubt he's making much profit.  However, it is a business, as he pointed out on his post.

M

I see where you're coming from too.  Finally someone that understands me heh.. Decent wording to convey my thoughts into something others could clearly underatand and make sense of was never one of my stronger attributes heh. 

Regarding his "salary" however, being that he opened the pool as zero fee, I had just assumed that this was his hobby and his time was his contribution to his hobby.  He might consider stating to his clients that this is no longer the case and he's now running a strictly "for profit" business here.  Or has he already and I'm just unaware?

OK, I think I see where you're coming from. But keep in mind "operating costs" don't include time. If you want someone available to manage a pool for at least 8 hours a day then you need to offer a salary on top of operating costs.

Regarding the freeloaders.. I was once among one of them, and I believe now that its likely the majority of them simply don't understand the importance of making voluntary contributions and the consequences should that not happen.

But yes, I do think going from 0% to 3% when it was clearly stated operating costs were 1.5% is a bit over the top in my opinion.  I would have preferred mandatory 1.5% to cover his costs and then open up the donations beyond that like he's doing now.  But its not my pool or decision to make I understand this

OK, so can you see the point of a fee then?

As someone who donates, would you be happy to know there are a bunch of freeloaders relying on your donation keeping the pool going and still reaping the benefits? Many of these freeloaders would contribute nothing to the pool other than shares through proxies.

Or are we just haggling about the percentage the fee should be?

I agree with you wholeheartedly.  Knowing what I've learned over the past days or so of the importance of donations I would have definitely been donating more all along.  I'm starting off on the right foot with eclipse by donating from the get-go and I encourage any of you reading this to consider donating as well.