Author

Topic: [AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 141. (Read 223316 times)

sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
Something completely unrelated: Who is the guy buying batches of 50,000 shares at 0.000799999? I appreciate that someone is supporting the current price level but what's in it for him/her?

Whatever he is doing, I think that it says a lot that no one has been selling into it.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
I believe the 6 Avalons were purchased before money was raised for them.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
(...)
Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold.  Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC.  Those are owned by whoever owns AMC.  Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares.  In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.

Thanks for the analysis Deprived. Smiley

As a comparison, ASICMINER has a roughly 41/59% profits split (favoring Bitfountain). I didn't find an explicit reference to the "ownership" of ASICMINER.
Introduction
ASICMINER is a virtual identity totally held by investors of the Bitfountain company. The Bitfountain company's business includes mining with self-built ASIC devices, as well as the sales of them. Currently ASICMINER shareholders holds 163,962 shares, while Bitfountain shareholders holds 236,038 shares. ASICMINER shares have the privilege of getting all net profits till 0.1BTC/share from the day when dividends began to be paid. They also have the exemption of dilution, which means that each ASICMINER share always equals to 1/400,000 of the total profits and voting power of the summed value from both ASICMINER and Bitfountain.
(...)

It has to do with the voting power. 1 ASICminer is entitled to 1/400 000 of the voting power while 1 AMC share isn't entitled to anything except profit.

The number of shares owned by AMC isn't the issue. Investors should be wary about the lack of  transparency. If the investors are providing 100 % funding, which seems likely seeing that the amount of hardware bought is proportional to the number of shares sold, in no way should they be entitled to only 1/40 000 000 of the profit per share in the first year or 1/100 000 000 of the profit afterwards. In no way are the founders providing any benefit to AMC.

This is in no way the same as ASICsminer:

How much has Bitfountain already invested, to give it right to 50% of shares?

Thanks for your question. Bitfountain has already invested 10k$ for the labor cost and EDA tools fee of physical design.
We ourselves made the logic-level design, tuning, and optimization so this part is almost free. We also keep another 15k$ or
so as a reserve for unexpected scenarios, but un-spent yet.

Of course the amount invested buy ourselves is much smaller compared to what we want to raise. Therefore it
resembles to the model that we become the 50% shareholder by contribution of mostly actual execution and technology factor.

Pricing of investment in venture business is always hard. Some would say 50% is unfair to the investors, because they
take almost all the risk. While others would say 50% is too high, since many angels provide all money for a startup to
bootstrapping out of it's infancy while only take 10-20%. But the greatest thing about market is that people vote with
their own stake, therefore the market cap of ASICMINER will tell us whether it's under- or over-priced in the next months
to come. Smiley

I'm still baffled at the reason for splitting VMC and AMC into two separated entities other than maximizing the profit for the founders while maximizing the risk for early investors.

Stoasis


Edit: added text about ASICminer
 
Vbs
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
(...)
Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold.  Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC.  Those are owned by whoever owns AMC.  Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares.  In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.

Thanks for the analysis Deprived. Smiley

As a comparison, ASICMINER has a roughly 41/59% profits split (favoring Bitfountain). I didn't find an explicit reference to the "ownership" of ASICMINER.
Introduction
ASICMINER is a virtual identity totally held by investors of the Bitfountain company. The Bitfountain company's business includes mining with self-built ASIC devices, as well as the sales of them. Currently ASICMINER shareholders holds 163,962 shares, while Bitfountain shareholders holds 236,038 shares. ASICMINER shares have the privilege of getting all net profits till 0.1BTC/share from the day when dividends began to be paid. They also have the exemption of dilution, which means that each ASICMINER share always equals to 1/400,000 of the total profits and voting power of the summed value from both ASICMINER and Bitfountain.
(...)
member
Activity: 72
Merit: 10

Shares not issued are owned by AMC which is indirectly implying that the founders are owning more than 60% of the shares. I'm also wondering what you mean by R&D. Aren't the miners developed by VMC which, as you have stated before, is a different company.


Of the 100% of shares.

20% are held by AMC for growth/reinvestment (a horrible way to do things but sadly common - shares should represent ownership not be a crude way to determine the percentage of profits dividended),
40% are potentially for sale to the public - with unsold ones the same as the first 20%
The other 40% would be the founder's own shares.

There's thus three ways to look at it:

If you look at divdends then the founder receives 40% of all dividends regardless of how many shares are sold.
If you look at distributed profits (i.e. the dividends that end up NOT going back to AMC) then before any shares were sold he received 100% (obviously) and when all 40% public ones are sold he receives 50%.
If you look at actual ownership then he owns 100% initially falling to 60% if all public shares are sold.

Right now if any profits were made he'd be entitled to the vast majority of that portion of them that was destined to end anywhere other than in AMC itself - as his personal 40% outweigh the portion actually sold.

How well the shares do depend mainly on how profits are calculated - which is where you have to hope he's generous as that largely depends on how VMC decides to define its cost price that it charges to AMC.  And of course VMC isn't responsible to investors so doesn't have to make any disclosure in respect of that.

Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold.  Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC.  Those are owned by whoever owns AMC.  Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares.  In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.

There's this sentence in the IPO:
Quote
Only the first 40,000,000 issued shares will receive 100% of the monthly profits after all expenses until the total dividends paid is equal to .0005 BTC per share.
So after all shares are sold there is a time frame where 100% of the profits are paid out to the shareholders and the growth and expansion fund. I agree with the rest of your analysis.

Something completely unrelated: Who is the guy buying batches of 50,000 shares at 0.000799999? I appreciate that someone is supporting the current price level but what's in it for him/her?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500

AMC Offering:

AMC's offering is comprised of 100,000,000 shares in total.

1 share of AMC on BitFunder represents 1/100,000,000th of 100% of the monthly profits after all expenses.

AMC shares offer no voting rights. Shares of AMC on BitFunder do not represent real world shares of the
company.  The shares are solely a distribution mechanism for rights to profits.

20,000,000 shares will be retained by AMC to maintain a growth and expansion fund.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying
time scale as capital is required to complete the project.  Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC.
These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.



Shares not issued are owned by AMC which is indirectly implying that the founders are owning more than 60% of the shares. I'm also wondering what you mean by R&D. Aren't the miners developed by VMC which, as you have stated before, is a different company.


Of the 100% of shares.

20% are held by AMC for growth/reinvestment (a horrible way to do things but sadly common - shares should represent ownership not be a crude way to determine the percentage of profits dividended),
40% are potentially for sale to the public - with unsold ones the same as the first 20%
The other 40% would be the founder's own shares.

There's thus three ways to look at it:

If you look at divdends then the founder receives 40% of all dividends regardless of how many shares are sold.
If you look at distributed profits (i.e. the dividends that end up NOT going back to AMC) then before any shares were sold he received 100% (obviously) and when all 40% public ones are sold he receives 50%.
If you look at actual ownership then he owns 100% initially falling to 60% if all public shares are sold.

Right now if any profits were made he'd be entitled to the vast majority of that portion of them that was destined to end anywhere other than in AMC itself - as his personal 40% outweigh the portion actually sold.

How well the shares do depend mainly on how profits are calculated - which is where you have to hope he's generous as that largely depends on how VMC decides to define its cost price that it charges to AMC.  And of course VMC isn't responsible to investors so doesn't have to make any disclosure in respect of that.

Bottomline is that he DOES own more than 60% - dropping to exactly 60% if/when all 40% of public shares are sold.  Reason for that is the ownership the shares owned by AMC.  Those are owned by whoever owns AMC.  Shareholders do NOT own AMC (that's explicit in the contract) so do not any part of those shares.  In practical terms, assuming good faith, the actual effective owned percentage of profits is 50% if all public shares are sold.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250

AMC Offering:

AMC's offering is comprised of 100,000,000 shares in total.

1 share of AMC on BitFunder represents 1/100,000,000th of 100% of the monthly profits after all expenses.

AMC shares offer no voting rights. Shares of AMC on BitFunder do not represent real world shares of the
company.  The shares are solely a distribution mechanism for rights to profits.

20,000,000 shares will be retained by AMC to maintain a growth and expansion fund.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying
time scale as capital is required to complete the project.  Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC.
These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.



Shares not issued are owned by AMC which is indirectly implying that the founders are owning more than 60% of the shares. I'm also wondering what you mean by R&D. Aren't the miners developed by VMC which, as you have stated before, is a different company.


I think that the shares will be used to fund the company so in theory it will work out better for the shareholders if the company reinvests the money from the unsold shares
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0

AMC Offering:

AMC's offering is comprised of 100,000,000 shares in total.

1 share of AMC on BitFunder represents 1/100,000,000th of 100% of the monthly profits after all expenses.

AMC shares offer no voting rights. Shares of AMC on BitFunder do not represent real world shares of the
company.  The shares are solely a distribution mechanism for rights to profits.

20,000,000 shares will be retained by AMC to maintain a growth and expansion fund.

As of the time of this writing, up to 40,000,000 will be released over time to the public on a varying
time scale as capital is required to complete the project.  Any remaining shares not included in the
IPO are owned/maintained/controlled by AMC.
These shares will be used at the issuers discretion
for any uses deemed fit. These uses are not limited to, but may include employment.



Shares not issued are owned by AMC which is indirectly implying that the founders are owning more than 60% of the shares. I'm also wondering what you mean by R&D. Aren't the miners developed by VMC which, as you have stated before, is a different company.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Dear fellow bitcoiners,


Please, don`t be blinded by ASICminer greed and think for yourself before investing in any bitcoin company. Would AMC deliver it's promises then this could be a potential good investment but the current state of affaire makes AMC succes dependable on to many outside factors. So be wary.

What has been bothering the most is Mr. Slaughter. Mr. Slaughter is being to mystical for my taste. Every announcement he has made has been either to vague or to general to double check (" major semiconductor company", "ISP company", ...). I also don’t believe he’s street smart enough, seeing how he has handled the IPO and the way he has been fending people who are questioning him.

AMC is a mining corporation, buying mining hardware to hash. We don’t know how many money the founders have invested but we do know that they are holding more than 60% of the share. For all i know the shareholders could be the one providing all the funds, making it a risk free investment for the the founders. I wouldn’t like to see another Ian Bakewell debacle happening here.


Please Mr. Slaughter don't take this personally this is just my impression based on the forum posts.
A coupe of Questions to Kslaughter:

*What's being invested by the founders and private shareholders? How do you justify owning more than 60% percent of the shares?

*What would happen if the price would rally ? Would you stop selling shares ?

*Are there any intentions of making shareholders boardmembers? This could potentially increase the trust in the company.


Stoasis

edit: layout

I don't own 60% of the shares, you need to read the description a little closer.  We want the stock to rally, we want investors to have a good "Long Term Investment".
Selling shares depends on our capital needs to buy more equipment, R & D, and other expenses related to mining.  When the Avalon's get here they will start generating capital,
so I see the need for selling shares decreasing in the future.  Board seats are sure possible in the future.
newbie
Activity: 22
Merit: 0
Dear fellow bitcoiners,


Please, don`t be blinded by ASICminer greed and think for yourself before investing in any bitcoin company. Would AMC deliver it's promises then this could be a potential good investment but the current state of affaire makes AMC succes dependable on to many outside factors. So be wary.

What has been bothering the most is Mr. Slaughter. Mr. Slaughter is being to mystical for my taste. Every announcement he has made has been either to vague or to general to double check (" major semiconductor company", "ISP company", ...). I also don’t believe he’s street smart enough, seeing how he has handled the IPO and the way he has been fending people who are questioning him.

AMC is a mining corporation, buying mining hardware to hash. We don’t know how many money the founders have invested but we do know that they are holding more than 60% of the shares. For all i know the shareholders could be the one providing all the funds, making it a risk free investment for the the founders. I wouldn’t like to see another Ian Bakewell debacle happening here.


Please Mr. Slaughter don't take this personally this is just my impression based on the forum posts.
A coupe of Questions to Kslaughter:

*What's being invested by the founders and private shareholders? How do you justify owning more than 60% percent of the shares?

*What would happen if the price would rally ? Would you stop selling shares ?

*Are there any intentions of making shareholders boardmembers? This could potentially increase the trust in the company.


Stoasis

edit: layout
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Help me out here.  You've sold 2M shares at 0.0005 for a total of 1000 BTC.  You bought over 1000 BTC worth of avalon chips.

How much other capital do you have?

Because I don't see how you have funds to build boards for the avalon chips, let alone pay for masks on your own device. 

Just sit back, the plan will be revealed soon and you will see the light.
Vbs
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Help me out here.  You've sold 2M shares at 0.0005 for a total of 1000 BTC.  You bought over 1000 BTC worth of avalon chips.

How much other capital do you have?

Because I don't see how you have funds to build boards for the avalon chips, let alone pay for masks on your own device. 

The avalon chips costed ฿782.10, you can see the screenshot in https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC > Profile > Images.

Don't know how much the boards will cost. Smiley
Vbs
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
Thanks lewicki for your opinion.  This is a high risk investment which offers a very high return if we can pull off being the next ASICminer.  I am going to do my best to make sure this does not go down in flames.  One thing you can count on is I have the ability to turn a business around when things are not going in the right direction.  I was able to turn around my ISP business when the Free internet services started taking a lot of my business.  I was able to adapt to the current climate, then as the Free services dried up, I was able to have the ISP business grow for another 6 years until dial up internet dried up.  This business is a little different, I don't expect those kind of problems, but there could be others.  I will be ready for them if and when they come.

Succinctly, mining is mostly a silicon time race, king of the hill style! Smiley

The biggest issues to solve are (1) hardware quantity/quality/price equilibrium and (2) time for deployment. ASICminer went the quantity+time route, delivering in bulk before mostly anyone else (mining+selling), and are now reaping the benefits.

I would say we have a pretty good starting point, but I would be much more relaxed if we had (today) 50k chips incoming instead of 10k. Grin
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
Help me out here.  You've sold 2M shares at 0.0005 for a total of 1000 BTC.  You bought over 1000 BTC worth of avalon chips.

How much other capital do you have?

Because I don't see how you have funds to build boards for the avalon chips, let alone pay for masks on your own device. 
member
Activity: 72
Merit: 10
New image of Avalon's shopping cart with the 6 Avalon's and the chip order.

Also, image of the 10,000 chip order.

https://bitfunder.com/asset/AMC profile->images

Thank you!
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
It's in my opinion - though biased since I am invested in AMC - that Mr. Slaughter, albeit strong in what they do (managing a profitable business, design/manufactuer chips?) have never run a public company before, are not underwriters, and/or were not prepared for what was expected. I for one can see past that.

Then again we may all go down in flames... That's to be expected with high risk investments though, and I can deal with being wrong in the off chance that this turns out to be insanely profitable for all parties.

I do NOT want to miss ASICminer 2.0

While Mr. Slaughter has done what he can to show transparency with his companies, a little more info would be appreciated. For instance, this "Major Semiconductor Company" has signed an NDA with VMC/AMC. Could we get the name of the company and very general plans on what is to come from this NDA? Competition is always great for the consumer but I do think that considering AMC as "ASICMiner 2.0" is premature.

Not at this time.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
It's in my opinion - though biased since I am invested in AMC - that Mr. Slaughter, albeit strong in what they do (managing a profitable business, design/manufactuer chips?) have never run a public company before, are not underwriters, and/or were not prepared for what was expected. I for one can see past that.

Then again we may all go down in flames... That's to be expected with high risk investments though, and I can deal with being wrong in the off chance that this turns out to be insanely profitable for all parties.

I do NOT want to miss ASICminer 2.0

While Mr. Slaughter has done what he can to show transparency with his companies, a little more info would be appreciated. For instance, this "Major Semiconductor Company" has signed an NDA with VMC/AMC. Could we get the name of the company and very general plans on what is to come from this NDA? Competition is always great for the consumer but I do think that considering AMC as "ASICMiner 2.0" is premature.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
I bought @ .0005 and sold recently (realizing a 30% profit in 1 day), as great as that is, the AMC market smells a little fishy at the moment.

There are currently 55,523 bids for shares @ .000799990 - .000799999, and the current 200k+ ask is at .0008.  Obviously this is the fund manager pumping the price.

I'm all for an artificial pump, it's the dump I'm weary of.

If you are holding shares, this might be a great opportunity to realize a profit.  (after all, the fund manager was dumping 500k shares at a time @ .0005 as recently as yesterday).

My motivation of course is to pick up more shares @ .0005 (where I feel this fund is currently valued).  That doesn't make what I'm saying incorrect ;-)

I would tend to agree with you. However, given the circumstances that a few parties submitted a petition to BitFunder to have AMC investigated due to what you mentioned a few days ago and what was said on this board, AMC has changed its actions to place static 500k blocks in increments of about .00005 from .0005 and up. Also as a response to the previous mentioned, Mr. Slaughter replied with this:

So from the 40 million shares only 2 million have been sold?

If that's the case, I hope they don't sell the next batches at .0005 again?

I would not count on .0005 again, I don't see that happening unless there is a crazy demand for capital.  I can't
rule that out, but I don't see it happening.

When the Avalon's get here and start mining there is going to be an inflow of capital to AMC from the 20 Million
growth and expansion fund shares.

It's in my opinion - though biased since I am invested in AMC - that Mr. Slaughter, albeit strong in what they do (managing a profitable business, design/manufactuer chips?) have never run a public company before and were not prepared for what was expected. I for one can see past that.

Then again we may all go down in flames... That's to be expected with high risk investments though, and I can deal with being wrong in the off chance that this turns out to be insanely profitable for all parties.

I do NOT want to miss ASICminer 2.0

Thanks lewicki for your opinion.  This is a high risk investment which offers a very high return if we can pull off being the next ASICminer.  I am going to do my best to make sure this does not go down in flames.  One thing you can count on is I have the ability to turn a business around when things are not going in the right direction.  I was able to turn around my ISP business when the Free internet services started taking a lot of my business.  I was able to adapt to the current climate, then as the Free services dried up, I was able to have the ISP business grow for another 6 years until dial up internet dried up.  This business is a little different, I don't expect those kind of problems, but there could be others.  I will be ready for them if and when they come.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
I bought @ .0005 and sold recently (realizing a 30% profit in 1 day), as great as that is, the AMC market smells a little fishy at the moment.

There are currently 55,523 bids for shares @ .000799990 - .000799999, and the current 200k+ ask is at .0008.  Obviously this is the fund manager pumping the price.

I'm all for an artificial pump, it's the dump I'm weary of.

If you are holding shares, this might be a great opportunity to realize a profit.  (after all, the fund manager was dumping 500k shares at a time @ .0005 as recently as yesterday).

My motivation of course is to pick up more shares @ .0005 (where I feel this fund is currently valued).  That doesn't make what I'm saying incorrect ;-)

I would tend to agree with you. However, given the circumstances that a few parties submitted a petition to BitFunder to have AMC investigated due to what you mentioned a few days ago and what was said on this board, AMC has changed its actions to place static 500k blocks in increments of about .00005 from .0005 and up. Also as a response to the previous mentioned, Mr. Slaughter replied with this:

So from the 40 million shares only 2 million have been sold?

If that's the case, I hope they don't sell the next batches at .0005 again?

I would not count on .0005 again, I don't see that happening unless there is a crazy demand for capital.  I can't
rule that out, but I don't see it happening.

When the Avalon's get here and start mining there is going to be an inflow of capital to AMC from the 20 Million
growth and expansion fund shares.

It's in my opinion - though biased since I am invested in AMC - that Mr. Slaughter, albeit strong in what they do (managing a profitable business, design/manufactuer chips?) have never run a public company before, are not underwriters, and/or were not prepared for what was expected. I for one can see past that.

Then again we may all go down in flames... That's to be expected with high risk investments though, and I can deal with being wrong in the off chance that this turns out to be insanely profitable for all parties.

I do NOT want to miss ASICminer 2.0
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
I bought @ .0005 and sold recently (realizing a 30% profit in 1 day), as great as that is, the AMC market smells a little fishy at the moment.

There are currently 55,523 bids for shares @ .000799990 - .000799999, and the current 200k+ ask is at .0008.  Obviously this is the fund manager pumping the price.

I'm all for an artificial pump, it's the dump I'm weary of.

If you are holding shares, this might be a great opportunity to realize a profit.  (after all, the fund manager was dumping 500k shares at a time @ .0005 as recently as yesterday).

My motivation of course is to pick up more shares @ .0005 (where I feel this fund is currently valued).  That doesn't make what I'm saying incorrect ;-)
Jump to: