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Topic: [AMC]-The Official Active Mining Cooperative Discussion - page 136. (Read 223316 times)

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
I hope my purchase of shares @ 0.00089999 doesn't disappoint when now shares are available @ ฿0.000750. I understand Mr. Slaughter needs to raise capital to buy more hardware , hope it is all worth.

If you are in Long Term, you won't be disappoint.  The speculators drove the price down.  I expect the price to rise after the Avalon's get here.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I hope my purchase of shares @ 0.00089999 doesn't disappoint when now shares are available @ ฿0.000750. I understand Mr. Slaughter needs to raise capital to buy more hardware , hope it is all worth.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
Quote
I have access to inventories of every semiconductor fab in the world, and cost models for every process tech commercially available today.  I know exactly what I am talking about.  And a Ph.D. in the field and decades of experience in the business.  Your attempt at credentialism doesn't impress me in the slightest.

Okay, do everyone a favor and put up a real cost analysis then.

If I was seeking investors I would.

What businesses/s have you started, and what business/s do you currently run? Thanks
full member
Activity: 140
Merit: 100
The tracking number it seems are being given out randomly  Undecided

So mr slaughter did you receive tracking details yet on your order??
member
Activity: 103
Merit: 10
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.2323290

Feb 17th order for an Avalon has received a tracking number.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
Quote
I have access to inventories of every semiconductor fab in the world, and cost models for every process tech commercially available today.  I know exactly what I am talking about.  And a Ph.D. in the field and decades of experience in the business.  Your attempt at credentialism doesn't impress me in the slightest.

Okay, do everyone a favor and put up a real cost analysis then.

I'll leave this here...

blog.zorinaq.com/?e=73
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
VBS you still aren't accounting for the shares outstanding correctly as I pointed out to you in the non-censored thread.

And masks, packaging and boards for custom chips will cost over $2M.  That is 20000 BTC.  It will be a long time before this 'company' won't be eating your capital.

Where are you pulling 2 million dollars from? If you don't know what's going on to the board and how many are being made, how can you come up with a number like that?

Because I know what a semiconductor mask set costs.  And I know what wafer starts cost.  And I know what die packaging assembly and test costs.


Masks two million? No way, $10K tops.

Wafer starts, depends on diameter or the wafer. You don't need 300mm/450mm to make ASIC chips you can make due with 100mm and less. You just need a couple of boats of wafers, you can buy these under a thousand from suppliers.

The feature sizes are relatively large for this type of devices. You don't need sophisticated lithography/etching.

You can buy packaging and test equipment cheap because there is a lot of it being liquidated from semiconductor factories that upgrade.

You can also outsource to get that done for you which will be even cheaper.

The key is finding all of these stuff at competitive rates and pulling it together.

Two million is quite a stretch.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

There are no foundries offering wafer starts at less than 110 nm on anything other than 300 mm.  And 450 mm doesn't exist at all today.

Masks are on the order of 100x what you imagine for a modern process node.

Lets start with this. http://siliconwafer.org/index.html

And so you know... I have an advanced degree in semiconductor manufacturing.
hero member
Activity: 490
Merit: 500
... it only gets better...
VBS you still aren't accounting for the shares outstanding correctly as I pointed out to you in the non-censored thread.

And masks, packaging and boards for custom chips will cost over $2M.  That is 20000 BTC.  It will be a long time before this 'company' won't be eating your capital.

Where are you pulling 2 million dollars from? If you don't know what's going on to the board and how many are being made, how can you come up with a number like that?

Because I know what a semiconductor mask set costs.  And I know what wafer starts cost.  And I know what die packaging assembly and test costs.


Masks two million? No way, $10K tops.

Wafer starts, depends on the size of the wafer. You don't need 300mm/450mm to make ASIC chips you can make due with 100mm or less. You just need a couple of boats of wafers and you can buy these bare or with deposited layers under a thousand from suppliers. You just need a semiconductor catalog and cash.

The feature sizes are relatively large for this type of devices. You don't need sophisticated lithography/etching meaning "cheap and probably quite easy to find someone to pattern".

You can buy packaging and test equipment cheap because there is a lot of it being liquidated from semiconductor factories that upgrade.

You can also outsource to get that done for you which will be even cheaper.

The key is finding all of these stuff at competitive rates and pulling it together.

Two million is quite a stretch.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
VBS you still aren't accounting for the shares outstanding correctly as I pointed out to you in the non-censored thread.

And masks, packaging and boards for custom chips will cost over $2M.  That is 20000 BTC.  It will be a long time before this 'company' won't be eating your capital.

Where are you pulling 2 million dollars from? If you don't know what's going on to the board and how many are being made, how can you come up with a number like that?
Vbs
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
I've run some more estimates for anyone to see the huge benefits of quickly increasing the hashrate (just considering Avalon chips), even with AMC taking a very small network percentage. Please take everything with a grain of salt (!), as these are only previsions based on speculative data.

I welcome any contributions for accuracy! Smiley

Baseline scenario:
  • Avalon 10k chips (order #2) is done around 15th june
  • Network hashrate assumes a 15% increase per month (geometric progression, r=1.15), with an estimated 381TH/s by december.
  • Operating expenses estimated at 10%.
  • Dividends/share/month assume 40,000,000 shares
  • Accumulated Growth/Expansion Fund expresses income dividends from the respective 20,000,000 shares, which reflects the BTC reserved specifically for hardware buying
  • Share valuation reflects the % of accumulated profit/share divided by the bought share price. A 100% figure means the share price is fully paid by earned dividends.

Possible scenario:
  • New orders of 10k Avalon chips keep costing BTC782.10
  • New order (#3) of 10k Avalon chips done around 28th august (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
  • New order (#4) of 10k Avalon chips done around 19th september (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
  • New order (#5) of 10k Avalon chips done around 10th october (made with 100% BTC from the Growth/Exp Fund)
  • No more increases in hardware after these orders (hugely unlikely Smiley, as the Growth/Exp Fund keeps getting bigger and bigger)
  • It's interesting to see that after crossing a certain revenue threshold, the selling of AMC shares to buy hardware isn't really a necessity.

sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Ever thought of hiring someone to manage the IPO so you could focus your time on the company?  Think of how much credibility / interest a long time respected member could bring to AMC.

You yourself have mentioned hiring additional employees. Wink

Oh, yes we will be adding employees, mostly to VMC.  AMC only has provisions for wages if we have 4 or more employees.  Right now we are putting AMC resources into increasing the cooperatives hash rate as fast as we can.

It won't be long before our credibility goes up.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1000
Ever thought of hiring someone to manage the IPO so you could focus your time on the company?  Think of how much credibility / interest a long time respected member could bring to AMC.

You yourself have mentioned hiring additional employees. Wink
Vbs
hero member
Activity: 504
Merit: 500
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

Agreed. Tough to judge, but unfortunately necessary to achieve the sated goals. Quicker they get sold, quicker a line can be drawn.

Would a forum auction work here? In itself, it generates interest. Seems to work well for AM shares, the last few weeks on these boards.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.

Well that's what happens when you fuck around with a non-transparent selling policy and price manipulation to try to sell more shares in the short-term.  You attract short-term sales at the price of long-term credibility/sales.  I've seen it plenty of times and it's never ended up working well for the issuer.

The problem many issuers face is that they try to sell more shares than there's actually demand for.  The policy of early-bird shares followed by a sharp price rise hits problems as soon as the sharp price-rsie occurs - as the initial investors then get to profit-take, undermining further sales.  And why wouldn't they do that - as there'll surely be more IPOs along shortly where they can make a 50%+ profit in a few weeks by flipping early-bird shares rather than holding on long-term with much greater risk for a massively lower APR.

Where AML varies from other ones burned by messing with this stupid sales policy (e.g. BitPride, ZigGap, BTCQuick on Bitfunder) is that it didn't even manage to sell all the early-bird shares.  The three listed sold all those - but then ran into undercutters cashing out profit when trying to sell the rest at much higher prices.  Guess every IPO has to learn the same lessons the hard way - specifically :

1.  Fucking with your own share price to raise it will only attract short-term speculative investment - a higher price will NOT attract new long-term investment that wouldn't invest at the lower price.
2.  If you sell some shares cheap then other identical shares at a higher price EXPECT a lot of of the ones who bought cheap to undercut you.

The exception to this is when a rise in price follows ACTUAL decent profits (see S.DICE - where higher priced tiers did sell out after months of steady real, not projected, profit).  That's profits that have been made - not fantasy projected ones based on being able to add hashpower (that has't even been built) to the network without changing the network's hashpower and without anyone else buying/building/deploying any ASICs at all.

From having seen plenty of other attempts at the same thing I'd expect the price to move around for a bit then slowly fall back towards the initial price as people who bought thinking they could cash out at the next price tier realise it isn't actually going to get there any time soon.  The drop can be delayed - but made sharper when it happens - by continued attempts to manipulate market prices.  The price CAN be kept high if sufficient capital is used to maintain bid-walls - but quite possibly at the cost of actual sold shares dropping and the retained capital/share falling as it gets thrown away buying back shares at a price higher than they were sold at.

Disclosure : I regularly buy/sell during IPOs - there's generally more profit (and much less risk) flipping during IPOs than holding the shares for any length of time.  I currently hold 0 AMC but HAVE bought and sold a small amount (profitably) for my fund.
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
PM between Ken and I,

Ken,

I have few questions about what funds are needed for the design/manufacturing of chips.

  • Most, if not all of the revenue of share sales seems to be going towards chip purchases. Could you enlighten us as to what your plans are for converting from a solely "outside chip purchase" revenue based system to a design/manufacturer/sales revenue based one?
  • What kind of capital is needed on the production side? Is it fully funded? Are future share sales going to pay for that?
  • Was the chip/avalon buying solely to get your feet wet and into the game before the chip manufacturing took off
  • If everything goes to plan, what are your plans after every share has received a total dividend value of at least .0005?


Thanks again

We are working with a semiconductor company to develop our own 45nm and 28nm bitcoin mining chips.  This will cut the cost
of our bitcoin mining machines.  VMC is working on getting its shopping cart to accept bitcoins, then we will start Pre-Orders for
August 31 shipping.

VMC will be funded by me personally, plus pre-order sales, plus a VMC offering.  Capital needs: Lots, manufacturing site, smt equipment,
employees, etc.  Not sales of AMC shares, maybe VMC shares.

Yes, the avalon/chip purchase is to get us up and running as fast as possible.

All 100,000,000 shares will receive dividends are 12 months from the IPO.  At this point the growth and expansion fund would be receiving 20% of the dividends.  AMC would be receiving 35% of the revenue if only 5,000,000 shares are sold.  This 35% would be used only for direct mining expenses, and if
needed wages if we have 4 or more employees. The 35% could be reinvested into more mining equipment.

Thanks Ken
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1000
Well I managed to get some at 0.0070 so I am happy. If it comes any lower I will get them too.

I was sitting just underneath you.  Wink
member
Activity: 72
Merit: 10
I think I, and most other people would just feel a lot better if Ken would set his Asks and then walk away.  The .00005 increment plan was working quite well.  People could see that buying now was advantageous as the price was going to be higher tomorrow.

By trading like a schizophrenic off his meds, he's only hurting interest and in turn his own ability to raise funds.

Ken, do us all a favor.  Set your Asks at the increment of your choosing and walk away.

I agree.

The situation right now is kind of unfortunate. If he keeps the pricing like it is right now there is a lower incentive to buy for new investors and people will accuse him of price fixing. But if he dumps new shares on the market at 0.0005 the people who bought in higher will get mad. I don't real see a way where he doesn't come of as the bad guy.
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