Topic: An open discussion on Provably Fair - page 2. (Read 1996 times)

Whenever you see a site that says they are provably fair, please ask them to prove it. By definition, they should be able to. If they cannot or otherwise avoid the question, assume they are not provably fair and look to steal your money. A great example of this behavior is RitzGrandCasino, who is fond of making new accounts to dodge negative trust, and making all of their topics self moderated.

agree and dont agree 

there are people out there who are trustworthy. the question is if they would like to take responsibility for this kind of service.
or there should be a standard for provably fair and all OP should implement it. I am not an  expert and therefore would like to see a service like this.

I don't think this is the solution. It's *a* solution but any position where that person running that site could be bribed would be a bad idea. People just need to understand it more.

thank You for bringing this up. what is really need that trusted people will put up a website or service to test gaming sites if they are really provably fair. I mean I would even pay for the service to be sure that I am not cheated before I lay down my coins on the table.
another service should also tell operators how to make it provably fair.

thanks again

Thank you all for your responses.

Hi RGBKey,
I was one of the sites that PM'd you. I realise you are busy but if you ever do find the time let me know.

It would also be great if anyone else on here could review my provably fair implementation.

I admit I didn't have the games be provably fair for a while.
I started the site with poker (sure a lot of you know how difficult it is to have provably fair poker) and when I added Blackjack and then Dice I felt that people in the community knew I was trustworthy and with me being around this long things were fine and people would leave the feedback for others to see. I had the plan to add it in as a feature at a later date.

It was used by lots of sites that would close up and steal coins so it wasn't guaranteed to let people feel safe.

I realised quite quickly though that none of this mattered and it was vital that I made the games provably fair so people didn't need to trust me or others reviews and could just check themselves if anything funny was going on behind the scenes.

I think the response has been good and I wish I had done it from the beginning. Who knows, it may have even put some potential players off.

Definitely agree that it has become a gimmick to attract noob gamblers.  There should be action to single out the websites which aren't really provably fair and can potentially scam their customers.

Totally agree with you on this. The term is commonly used in Bitcoin gambling industry and brought us one step forward toward old and traditional casino (although technically it can be used in every casino). I believe this is one reason why players prefer to gamble in Bitcoin. Abusing this term will hurt people's trust in Bitcoin gambling.

However, I also believe that this case is inevitable, so in the end it is left to the players to look at the detail of provably fair method. What you (and other nice people I know such as mem, iram, mike, etc.) are doing now is the best we can do:

• Create trustable entity to "label" which sites are truly fair and which aren't.
• Educating players to know better of provably fair.

Thanks for creating this thread!

Great information.....Thank You!

Interested in hearing your view on satoshiDice?

Thanks again!

Hello, a lot of you have probably seen me around here more than once, generally saying something about provable fairness. I've looked into this for a while and the community really needs to understand what it is.

When provably fair was first implemented as an idea, people trusted it because it was backed by sound math. Nowadays when I see provably fair, it seems like it's more of a fake thing used as a selling point for people who don't understand it.

I'm not here to tell anybody how they should implement a provably fair system. Provable fairness is defined in its title in that it is able to prove beyond a doubt that no results are being manipulated by the operator of the service by using strong proven cryptography. It's not something you can add a bunch of random looking numbers to and say "It looks like its random, let's just leave it at that".

I know some of you have PM'd me asking for verifiers for your sites and I'm sorry I haven't gotten back to you, I've been swamped and have had little time for bitcoin things.

That being said, my main point in this thread is we as a community have begun to get lazy with this. There are sites out there that claim to be provably fair but are not. If you look through my trust I'm sure you'll find at least one.

I cannot protect everybody from these sites and people need to learn what constitutes true provable fairness. A couple easy checks could follow something like this:

• What variables are used to create the random roll? (I would say 90% of provably fair systems derive their results directly from a hash of a few things)
• Does the client control at least one of those variables?
• What does the server use as other input to a hash function? Is it something that they can change by a small amount, test to see if the new roll would benefit them and then substitute without the user knowing?

The above is a major point in which many people fail to look at

Again, I'm not here to tell people that they can't gamble where they want. If you win money from any site, congratulations. You may have won money or maybe you were just a part outside the extra few percent the owner manipulates.

Here is a great example of abusing the term provably fair.

So finally I ask everyone here to please, please please please get somebody that knows what they're doing to look over the site for you, and tell you whether or not it's provably fair.

Bitcoin was created so that you could use strong cryptography to secure your money. Why would you go around and say you believe in that money only to use sites that don't use strong cryptography to prove themselves fair when there are so many out there?

Thank you, and please discuss.