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Topic: Analysis and list of top big blocks shills (XT #REKT ignorers) - page 21. (Read 46564 times)

legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
What is frightening? That you misunderstand? Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, and blame me for not explaining well enough.

For miners to build on top of a block then nodes would have to have propagated it to them, i'm sorry that I didn't explain this. I should not have assumed implicit knowledge.

So to be doubly clear, if the majority hash rate is ming >1MB blocks and the nodes are propagating >1MB blocks then that is the longest chain and by definition it is valid. So I say again 'valid' is redundant.

I am sorry if I am coming accross as anal retentive but unless you clearly state the differences unfamiliar users will be dangerously misled. This doesn't involve having to write a 500 page lecture and you can simply state something like - "ultimately the economic majority of nodes define what is valid"

We have to be clear with our language as not to confuse others unfamiliar with how consensus is formed. This isn't being nitpicky, but a very important principle which needs to be stressed as new users will be confused and mislead into believing that the miners control the network and define what is valid when this isn't necessarily true. We need to be clear with our language that it is the nodes and more specifically the economic majority of nodes that define what is valid and what is not.

Not understanding this distinction can lead to some very large errors in judging the security of the network and understanding how consensus is formed.

This means that -
1) Not all nodes are created equal. Nodes without economic actors on the other side can slightly degrade the network security. Spinning up 1k nodes on amazon ec2 will not create a successful coup. This is why it is important to stress that the economic majority of nodes decides on valid transactions.

2) In a hardfork scenario implementations will typically use an indirect means of approximating the will of the economic majority
of nodes by either using 750 of the last 1k mined blocks or 950 of the last 1k blocks. It is important to reflect that this doesn't necessarily indicate that the majority of the economic consensus aligns themselves with the miners and there could be a disastrous(or wonderful - depending on perspective) split where the economic majority of nodes(merchants/wallets/processors/large bagholders/exchanges) fall on the otherside of the miners. This is why many individuals stress that we need a much higher threshhold of 95% to approximate general consensus.

3) While the majority of nodes have an incentive to follow the most hashing power on the longest chain during a hardfork it can become very unclear as to which implementation will have the most hashing power or economic majority. For this reason individuals should safeguard their bitcoins in cold storage(remove from banks and exchanges) under contentious hardforks(and any fork that needs such a low threshold as 75% mined blocks to activate certainly is contentious )

During a hardfork scenario there are several different options the chain with the perceived less hashing power can do -

  • 1) Quickly move over to the longest chain with the most hashing power out of security fears
  • 2) Stay on their chain with less hashing power and hope the other chain doesn't become hostile and conduct a 51% attack. Notice there are now two chains , each with equal length , and each following the same principle of the logest valid PoW chain. One simply has more hashing power over the other, which can quickly and dynamically adjust as miners move back and forth between chains or one group ramps up ASICs that use their consensus code.
  • 3) Nodes can choose to give up the PoW algo altogether and fork off with one of many PoS / or hybrid algos.
  • 4) Nodes can choose another PoW algo and make the existing miners irrelevant to themselves.(There is already code in place ready for this if needed).

What I mean is all the nodes might be happy with bigger blocks but if the majority of miners refuse to build on them then they will just get orphaned off, so although the nodes have the power of veto, its the miners that instigate the change in consensus.

More specifically it is the developers of the implementation who instigate the change that allow the miners to chose.... and this is only for  technical limitations of the difficulty in approximating the economic consensus of nodes vote. This may change in the future and it is important to stress that allowing the miners to vote is a clumsy and rough approximation that doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the economic majority.


legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
What is frightening? That you misunderstand? Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, and blame me for not explaining well enough.

For miners to build on top of a block then nodes would have to have propagated it to them, i'm sorry that I didn't explain this. I should not have assumed implicit knowledge.

So to be doubly clear, if the majority hash rate is ming >1MB blocks and the nodes are propagating >1MB blocks then that is the longest chain and by definition it is valid. So I say again 'valid' is redundant.

it doesnt matter if the majority of hashrate is mining > 1mb.. the important part is.... if nodes are in the majority to accept >1mb.

and in the case that IF nodes are in the majority(deemed as being 95% consensus) able to accept blocks >1mb.. then it doesnt matter if the block is 0.2mb, 0.9mb, 1.01mb 1.5mb.. its all the same.. and all that matters is who solves a block fastest.
miners wont be creating 1.9mb blocks instantly.. at first it will be a safer plan to create 1.025mb blocks and slowing grow when comfortable

then the 5% of nodes who dont accept >1mb will orphan off those 1.025mb blocks making the non >1mb nodes slightly lagging behind, because they only accept certain blocks.. and thus be a few blocks behind and no longer in sync with 95% of consensus. making them no longer part of the chain. and required to change the blocksize limit to be part of consensus again..

and the reverse.. if 95% of consensus is to stick with <1mb then the 5% >1mb.. all nodes will still accept all <1mb blocks.. and the problem would only occur if a miner sent out a blockheight X of 1.025 faster then another miner made the same blockheight X, but of a 0.95mb block, 2 seconds later... 5% would initially accept it the 1.025 as it arrived first, and 95% would reject it as it doesnt meet their rules, but accept the 0.95mb block 2 seconds later..

then when the next blockheightX+1 happens 10 minutes later the system would recognise that the longest chain is <1mb.. making the 5% >1mb eventually throw out and orphan that 1.025 block because the merkle chain of previous blocks wont match, and thus backtrack to resync to the longest chain of <1mb blocks that do match consensus

To clarify my post the reason i focused on miners before was that I got told off once for talking only about nodes! What I mean is all the nodes might be happy with bigger blocks but if the majority of miners refuse to build on them then they will just get orphaned off, so although the nodes have the power of veto, its the miners that instigate the change in consensus.

I think we are saying the same thing though essentially! That the network decides what consensus is by *being* that consensus, in the form of the longest chain.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
What is frightening? That you misunderstand? Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, and blame me for not explaining well enough.

For miners to build on top of a block then nodes would have to have propagated it to them, i'm sorry that I didn't explain this. I should not have assumed implicit knowledge.

So to be doubly clear, if the majority hash rate is ming >1MB blocks and the nodes are propagating >1MB blocks then that is the longest chain and by definition it is valid. So I say again 'valid' is redundant.

it doesnt matter if the majority of hashrate is mining > 1mb.. the important part is.... if nodes are in the majority to accept >1mb.

and in the case that IF nodes are in the majority(deemed as being 95% consensus) able to accept blocks >1mb.. then it doesnt matter if the block is 0.2mb, 0.9mb, 1.01mb 1.5mb.. its all the same.. and all that matters is who solves a block fastest.
miners wont be creating 1.9mb blocks instantly.. at first it will be a safer plan to create 1.025mb blocks and slowing grow when comfortable

then the 5% of nodes who dont accept >1mb will orphan off those 1.025mb blocks making the non >1mb nodes slightly lagging behind, because they only accept certain blocks.. and thus be a few blocks behind and no longer in sync with 95% of consensus. making them no longer part of the chain. and required to change the blocksize limit to be part of consensus again..

and the reverse.. if 95% of consensus is to stick with <1mb then the 5% >1mb.. all nodes will still accept all <1mb blocks.. and the problem would only occur if a miner sent out a blockheight X of 1.025 faster then another miner made the same blockheight X, but of a 0.95mb block, 2 seconds later... 5% would initially accept it the 1.025 as it arrived first, and 95% would reject it as it doesnt meet their rules, but accept the 0.95mb block 2 seconds later..

then when the next blockheightX+1 happens 10 minutes later the system would recognise that the longest chain is <1mb.. making the 5% >1mb eventually throw out and orphan that 1.025 block because the merkle chain of previous blocks wont match, and thus backtrack to resync to the longest chain of <1mb blocks that do match consensus
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269
the last one is right?

What about raise limit and clog Bitcoin with dust?

legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
I bet the small block proponents are super pleased to have you arguing there corner right now Smiley

You are doing a stand up job of representing them!
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269
you seem stressed. I wonder what you wanted to communicate with that double post.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
 
dear grandpa sgbett.

It must have been an amazing post. Sadly you're ignored.

Ignoring is a funny thing. People wave it around like a threat, like they have some kind of power over the other.

The only thing ignoring serves to do is to insulate the 'ignorer' against having to consider another point of view.

There are countless people that I disagree with, and likely more that disagree with me!

I still read their posts, the ones that aren't banal and trolling might contain something that I can learn from - however much it may differ from my opinion. I'm secure enough to know that being wrong about something isn't some huge character flaw, or qualitative judgement on me as a person.

So whenever anyone says they have 'ignored' someone, to me, it just demonstrates how close minded a person is.

To be so insecure in your own beliefs that you cannot bear to even consider an alternative? Opinions formed in a vacuum, out of fear and superstition? How can anything that person says have any credibility.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087

This is frightening.

Are you aware that invalid forks with the longest chain can and do happen and they are ignored because they don't follow consensus rules?

Are you aware that miners can continue hashing all they want and if the economic majority of nodes disagree with their chain being valid than it is ignored and those blocks are orphaned?

Do you understand that the economic majority of nodes holds the power to dictate what chain is valid and whether a chain is longer or not is secondary to the consensus rules of these nodes being followed?

What's actually frightening to me that these people actually think they can take over Bitcoin.

We've talked about it many times. They've spent countless funds to propaganda and whatnot. Their days are counted. We are well entrenched,
they can't do shit to damage the system. They don't have the balls to actually do 51% attack.

"Us and them" very droll.
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269
dear grandpa sgbett.

It must have been an amazing post. Sadly you're ignored.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
What is your definition of valid chain?

The one that everyone agrees is valid or the one where a small minority refuse to accept things have moved on.

The longest chain, will invariably be the longest 'valid' chain by definition. The longest chain (discounting for luck/variance) is the one with most hashing power. The longest *defines* valid.

So the word valid is redundant, and using it doesn't make any sense.

If a >1MB block gets mined and that chain stays longest (because the majority build on top of it) then sorry dear, it was tonight.

Until it does we watch and wait, and people continue to post drama on the internets.

This is frightening.

Are you aware that invalid forks with the longest chain can and do happen and they are ignored because they don't follow consensus rules?

Are you aware that miners can continue hashing all they want and if the economic majority of nodes disagree with their chain being valid than it is ignored and those blocks are orphaned?

Do you understand that the economic majority of nodes holds the power to dictate what chain is valid and whether a chain is longer or not is secondary to the consensus rules of these nodes being followed?

What is frightening? That you misunderstand? Lets give you the benefit of the doubt, and blame me for not explaining well enough.

For miners to build on top of a block then nodes would have to have propagated it to them, i'm sorry that I didn't explain this. I should not have assumed implicit knowledge.

So to be doubly clear, if the majority hash rate is ming >1MB blocks and the nodes are propagating >1MB blocks then that is the longest chain and by definition it is valid. So I say again 'valid' is redundant.
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269

This is frightening.

Are you aware that invalid forks with the longest chain can and do happen and they are ignored because they don't follow consensus rules?

Are you aware that miners can continue hashing all they want and if the economic majority of nodes disagree with their chain being valid than it is ignored and those blocks are orphaned?

Do you understand that the economic majority of nodes holds the power to dictate what chain is valid and whether a chain is longer or not is secondary to the consensus rules of these nodes being followed?

What's actually frightening to me that these people actually think they can take over Bitcoin.

We've talked about it many times. They've spent countless funds to propaganda and whatnot. Their days are counted. We are well entrenched,
they can't do shit to damage the system. They don't have the balls to actually do 51% attack.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1035
What is your definition of valid chain?

The one that everyone agrees is valid or the one where a small minority refuse to accept things have moved on.

The longest chain, will invariably be the longest 'valid' chain by definition. The longest chain (discounting for luck/variance) is the one with most hashing power. The longest *defines* valid.

So the word valid is redundant, and using it doesn't make any sense.

If a >1MB block gets mined and that chain stays longest (because the majority build on top of it) then sorry dear, it was tonight.

Until it does we watch and wait, and people continue to post drama on the internets.

This is frightening.

Are you aware that invalid forks with the longest chain can and do happen and they are ignored because they don't follow consensus rules?

Are you aware that miners can continue hashing all they want and if the economic majority of nodes disagree with their chain being valid than it is ignored and those blocks are orphaned?

Do you understand that the economic majority of nodes holds the power to dictate what chain is valid and whether a chain is longer or not is secondary to the consensus rules of these nodes being followed?
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1087
What is your definition of valid chain?

The one that everyone agrees is valid or the one where a small minority refuse to accept things have moved on.

The longest chain, will invariably be the longest 'valid' chain by definition. The longest chain (discounting for luck/variance) is the one with most hashing power. The longest *defines* valid.

So the word valid is redundant, and using it doesn't make any sense.

If a >1MB block gets mined and that chain stays longest (because the majority build on top of it) then sorry dear, it was tonight.

Until it does we watch and wait, and people continue to post drama on the internets.
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
BTC trader
There is no block size limit--it is a shared dream from which we're now waking up from.
The current block size limit comes from the current consensus rules. Changing it requires creating a blockchain fork, like cloning bitcoin and hoping to kill the original.
Arguably, it is impossible to know with certainty what the current consensus rules are, other than by creating blocks and seeing if those blocks are accepted into the longest chain.  We can't know for sure what code the economic majority is running--we could ask them or they could tell us--but they could lie.  Proof-of-work is where we "put our money where our mouth is," as it were.

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/consensus/consensus.h

Code:
/** The maximum allowed size for a serialized block, in bytes (network rule) */
static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIZE = 1000000;
/** The maximum allowed number of signature check operations in a block (network rule) */
static const unsigned int MAX_BLOCK_SIGOPS = MAX_BLOCK_SIZE/50;
/** Coinbase transaction outputs can only be spent after this number of new blocks (network rule) */
static const int COINBASE_MATURITY = 100;

Changing these requires creating a blockchain fork, like cloning bitcoin and hoping to kill the original.

The longest chain is not the same as the longest valid chain.

What is your definition of 'economic majority'?
sr. member
Activity: 687
Merit: 269

The word 'governed' probably has the wrong connotations.  Perhaps it is better to say that the "evolution of the network is decided by the code people freely choose to run."


The word governed is the correct world. This is what are you guys for? To govern Bitcoin?

Arguably, it is impossible to know with certainty what the current consensus rules are, other than by creating blocks and seeing if those blocks are accepted into the longest chain.  We can't know for sure what code the economic majority is running--we could ask them or they could tell us--but they could lie.  Proof-of-work is where we "put our money where our mouth is," as it were.

Go ahead grandpa. Mine that 8MB block today.
legendary
Activity: 1162
Merit: 1007
Bitcoin is governed by the code people freely choose to run.
It's not that simple. Your oversimplification comes from one of the requirements of effective propaganda. Simple enough to be understood by the masses. What do they want? They want democracy, they want to feel they have the power. Tell them what they want to hear.

Bitcoin is not 'governed' by anyone.

The word 'governed' probably has the wrong connotations.  Perhaps it is better to say that the "evolution of the network is decided by the code people freely choose to run."

There is no block size limit--it is a shared dream from which we're now waking up from.
The current block size limit comes from the current consensus rules. Changing it requires creating a blockchain fork, like cloning bitcoin and hoping to kill the original.

Arguably, it is impossible to know with certainty what the current consensus rules are, other than by creating blocks and seeing if those blocks are accepted into the longest chain.  We can't know for sure what code the economic majority is running--we could ask them or they could tell us--but they could lie.  Proof-of-work is where we "put our money where our mouth is," as it were.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1008
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
interesting about F2Pool.

But things seem to be changing fast in general.
who knows what news will hit tomorrow?
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1008
Uh, no I won't get lost.  I've just as much right to express myself as you do.

You're welcome to make predictions though.  I think they would be
more interesting if you explain why Chinese miners wouldn't support
bigger blocks.

Have you missed the news from today? They have stated that they are staying with Core.

is this the news you're referring to:

https://twitter.com/AaronvanW/status/690120783281156097

?

if this is the case:

https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/41zk79/chinese_pools_withdraw_their_support_for_classic/cz6etuv

Quote from: /u/KoKansei
So I just read the entire essay and the thread and it seems like this is at most just a personal opinion of the HaoBTC COO, who seems to be fairly biased and uninformed on several issues. The account posting the essay admitted in the comments when pressed that "the essay just expresses my personal views and is not an official statement from HaoBTC."
Something seems fishy here, but whatever the case these guys don't seem very professional.
Personally I would want official confirmation from HaoBTC on their website or a corroborating account from /u/jgarzik before I took this seriously.
legendary
Activity: 1260
Merit: 1116
Ok I saw the article about Jeff Garzik flying to Asia
and talking to "Haobtc, OKCoin, Bitmain, Bither, LIGHTNINGASIC".

I'll wait for the official story,but it seems like
Bitfury supporting classic is a much bigger
deal.  They are a major pool.

Bither and Haobtc are just wallets from what I can
tell, and Okcoin is an exchange.  

So to me, in the last 24 hours, Classic is winning
but that's just my biased opinion.

You are ignoring the deal F2Pool made a couple days ago with core and Bitfurys unclear support (both a nod or support and an article attacking Classic Principles)

Regardless , I may join you and start supporting classic temporarily because a hard fork may be a solution to the problem with mining centralization --

Quote
If there were a sustained hard fork, we would support both coins. I think this is extremely unlikely to happen, however, as it would require > 75% of the miners to agree to it. The other 25% mining the old chain would be in a very weak state and would quickly switch rather than risk being attacked by the other guys.

I don't know ... After some consideration I am more sympathetic to Guy Corem's position that competing coins post fork would be great . I would likely buy many GPU's and BTC Core coins as well with an ASICproof algo behind the coin.

http://pastebin.com/B8YQr5TQ

Both coins will surely take a large beating initially, but one would become more decentralized and one more corporate over time. In a way I am somewhat disappointed that the Chinese miners appear to be getting behind core. I may have to switch sides temporarily and support classic to insure this split happens for the good of the ecosystem.

Unfortunately, with all this miner backroom deals with core I don't know if we will have an opportunity for a fork. I now have mixed opinions on the matter.

I have very mixed feelings about it. And I still think mining centralization is the biggest problem we have.
sr. member
Activity: 406
Merit: 252
This is gonna be a war between greater-chain-coins vs weaker-chain-coins. And in many people's opinion, mining included, the weaker-chain mining ceases nearly immediately due to the inability for miners to sell mined coins anywhere.

Also people will not feel safer to adopt Bitcoin classic all of a sudden due to a risk of getting them stuck in exchanges with a huge sell wall!
Why cannot we wait for some time to confirm a transaction rather than making a new coin with speedier transaction?  Huh
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