Topic: Analyzing other players in poker games (Read 295 times)

So, as automated bots are probably frowned on, how about bots that don't play, but just calculate best actions for current situation against the players in real time?

If these data are publicly available I don't think there would be problems of that kind. I thought you were suggesting something more like accessing huge amounts of data of private rooms, but if you can do it with data shared by players with knowledge of the facts, then I don't think anyone can stop you by simply alleging data protection.

About pseudonymity you asked, data protection applies (at least in Europe) to all data except the fully anonymous. But not to data of any kind that are public if you use them "domestically". The service providers you mentioned, on the other hand, should be more careful IMO.

You look at their general personality according to how deep do they bluff, at what cards they go all in and how much risk they are willing to take.

We can get the basic outlook within a few hands and when you play them for days, you get the knowledge of their playing style so you could devise your playing style accordingly

. As an example, there are people who bluff a lot even with high hands, you can easily milk money out of them when you have a better card. While some people go hard only when they have a triple or flush, if you think you can't have better hand, you could just fold saving yourself.
Poker indeed is a game of reading each other and planning accordingly. Only luck won't take you far unless you read other players.

Let me give a new input, you can analyze the others yet if you have a huge amount of bad luck you will not do anything nor you will go further, in many casinos and not in only one the third party providers of Poker absolutely suck and the reason is simple, how can you lose in consecutive ways when you have a pair of Aces and you go all in. I understand that you can lose once or a couple of times when you go all in with 2 aces but losing in a consecutive way simply doesn't make sense, are we sure that the auditor of the software that the casino uses is a good one, how do we know the auditor has not been paid and the casino to do a lot of deep shit regarding everything in there, I have started to not trust some casinos in this matter. We need to have a provably fair mechanism that can prove us just that, how fair a casino is and in every game, including third party poker or slot providers.

Automatically? I'm not an expert as to the limits and maximum reach of AI right now, but it seems difficult. After all, as you've indicated, the chance of meeting same players is rather low. So, is there a way for AI to provide you the profiles, tendencies, strategies, play patterns, and so on of your opponents right away? I'm afraid it's not that instant.

If you're playing tournaments offline though, I'm sure some players have created certain reputations within the community-- some kind of aggressive, some prefer playing safe, and so on. There must have been patterns developed in their way of playing, although I don't think high-level poker players are that predictable.

I guess we have different definitions for immorality as what i am suggesting isn't a silver bullet of any kind, but just a data, like memory pad inside a complicated excel.

And few things here: I don't see this as personal or hidden data, it's same data that players can already observe publicly in these tables, just by playing. Players themselves know that people can see the history of played hands in the table.

There are literal note taking possibilities inside the games already, and those are provided by the game host. So is writing as much as notes as possible an illegal registry, when it's about pseudonymous players? Or will it becomes an illegal registry? With how much data exactly?

I am interested if people are doing this and how they do it. Do you take notes and what kind of information do you use?

I have sometimes just watched a hands trough to end knowing that i'll lose, just to know how others play their cards that seemingly don't make sense, and i have seen them just just waiting for the river to save them etc. But analyzing others only works in cash table games where there are certain amount of people, and i am mostly playing huge tournaments these days, and changes to meet same players is rather low, as so are cases where i could even use my notes against them.

This made me think if there are bot services that i could use for creating player profiles automatically. You know, bots that would include action history and deduct best action for each player, in every possible combination. Combining info on how they have played each hand, combined with which community cards and in which stages (pre-flop, flop, turn, or river). And obviously using data like chip count, bet, and if they have BB at the time, and stuff like that.

I am certain that something like this could be build, but parsing that data into useful information requires lots of work. But i am assuming there must has already to be AI that is using massive behavioral profile databases to beat those players.

So, as automated bots are probably frowned on, how about bots that don't play, but just calculate best actions for current situation against the players in real time?

Leaving aside whether it could be considered cheating or not (although, let me note that I consider highly immoral what you're proposing here), for a behavioural analysis like that you would have to process a series of personal data that are protected by the laws of many countries.

Perhaps an online casino could add a clause to their T&Cs that would cover that processing, but in your case, do you imagine yourself asking for consent to the rest of the players to profile them and analyse their behaviour legally? You might think about doing it in secret, but then the problem would not be whether it is cheating or not, but the fact that you would be carrying out illegal personal data processing to, maybe, scam your opponents.

I believe this will be available in no time or maybe does exist already but we just havent known. With the help of AI the idea you mentioned isnt impossible, but there will be questions to its accuracy of course.

Wondering if anyone had some encountered with this kind or at least knew of.

It's possible to create a bot that mimics a player based on the input data we given but it's too much data we need to get better results and these are just possible outcomes based on given data and it could change if the real person decides at the moment because bot decide the moves based on past actions while a human decide based on the current situation. And that's too much extent for someone to analyse how a player handles their bet and if they are our opponents you obviously will have limited input data about their moves that makes it highly inaccurate.

I don't think this is cheating in traditional sense. It's just complex way of taking notes, and to find patterns in behavior. It's power of psychology enhanced with computing power. Some people can always break their patterns to threw opponents off. That's what they are dong now.

Using computer program in real life events, it's not allowed to use any help, but in online games, one can assume that someone is using every edge they can, as no one could prove that you wouldn't.

Using help with chess for example would be considered as cheating, because there's no room for randomness or luck. So computer programs would make all the difference in most cases. In fact they are pretty much strip searching for the big games. Poker games have way more luck involved, so "cheating" might just give an edge, it doesn't determine who would win.

If automated bots are scrapped due to being clunky I don't think a bot on the command to analyze oppositions/other players handed cards would uniquely perform one of the efficient results.

If ideologically we think the casinos are cracking down  the auto bots due to its nature of cheating, using other mechanical systems as thought can not be spare to exist in any of the proactive (no cheating) updated casinos.

Cheating is cheating either porker or whatever casino games is required to be played single handedly by human performance and not AI but if that seems to be workable and acceptable, of course it would be a great one for the users while other players suffers it and for this thought I don't see this technology feasible.

I am certain that something like this could be build, but parsing that data into useful information requires lots of work. But i am assuming there must has already to be AI that is using massive behavioral profile databases to beat those players.

I believe that even in this case, bots remain cheating aids, the use of which is not allowed both in poker in particular and in gambling in general. Any aids that disrupt the game balance between gamblers provide advantages that have no place in gambling such as gambler vs. gambler. The confrontation in poker should be between the personal qualities of gamblers, and not in who has more advanced (technically better) aids or the ability to use them. I am for "pure" gambling.

I believe this will be available in no time or maybe does exist already but we just havent known. With the help of AI the idea you mentioned isnt impossible, but there will be questions to its accuracy of course.

Wondering if anyone had some encountered with this kind or at least knew of.

I believe that even in this case, bots remain cheating aids, the use of which is not allowed both in poker in particular and in gambling in general. Any aids that disrupt the game balance between gamblers provide advantages that have no place in gambling such as gambler vs. gambler. The confrontation in poker should be between the personal qualities of gamblers, and not in who has more advanced (technically better) aids or the ability to use them. I am for "pure" gambling.

This made me think if there are bot services that i could use for creating player profiles automatically. You know, bots that would include action history and deduct best action for each player, in every possible combination. Combining info on how they have played each hand, combined with which community cards and in which stages (pre-flop, flop, turn, or river). And obviously using data like chip count, bet, and if they have BB at the time, and stuff like that.

I am certain that something like this could be build, but parsing that data into useful information requires lots of work. But i am assuming there must has already to be AI that is using massive behavioral profile databases to beat those players.

So, as automated bots are probably frowned on, how about bots that don't play, but just calculate best actions for current situation against the players in real time?

I am interested if people are doing this and how they do it. Do you take notes and what kind of information do you use?

I have sometimes just watched a hands trough to end knowing that i'll lose, just to know how others play their cards that seemingly don't make sense, and i have seen them just just waiting for the river to save them etc. But analyzing others only works in cash table games where there are certain amount of people, and i am mostly playing huge tournaments these days, and changes to meet same players is rather low, as so are cases where i could even use my notes against them.

This made me think if there are bot services that i could use for creating player profiles automatically. You know, bots that would include action history and deduct best action for each player, in every possible combination. Combining info on how they have played each hand, combined with which community cards and in which stages (pre-flop, flop, turn, or river). And obviously using data like chip count, bet, and if they have BB at the time, and stuff like that.

I am certain that something like this could be build, but parsing that data into useful information requires lots of work. But i am assuming there must has already to be AI that is using massive behavioral profile databases to beat those players.

So, as automated bots are probably frowned on, how about bots that don't play, but just calculate best actions for current situation against the players in real time?

I believe that even in this case, bots remain cheating aids, the use of which is not allowed both in poker in particular and in gambling in general. Any aids that disrupt the game balance between gamblers provide advantages that have no place in gambling such as gambler vs. gambler. The confrontation in poker should be between the personal qualities of gamblers, and not in who has more advanced (technically better) aids or the ability to use them. I am for "pure" gambling.

It would basically the same that bots which play for you, the only difference it would be your interference on whether to pay attention to the profile being drawn for you by the bot or trust your gut on what it is the best approach for each situation.
See... people do not invest their time and money to create a frictional poker bot only to end up ignoring it's recommendations, so if you had access to such a tool you would end up abusing it's power to increase your profit or chances of profit as much as possible, anyone would do the same.
That is why I prefer to play face-to-face poker nowadays and I train playing with actual people instead of going on the internet and waste my time with bots who try to get as much advantage off my as possible, and think faster than I do. At least, face-to-face poker offers other mechanisms and ways to get your objective, it offers chances to deceive other players and read their corporal cues while you build your own strategy up. That is the kind of poker I love.