Anarchy =~ Communism - page 3. | Bitcointalksearch.org

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 12, 2011, 03:21:14 AM

Canarchy -> AnCap

Sanarchy -> Socialist Anarchy

Ah, thank you. So you are concerned that in an anarcho-capitalist society there would be nothing to prevent a powerful, malevolent hierarchical organization from assigning itself power and taking over. This is a valid concern. Let me ask you a question before I attempt to respond: What stops a government (even a democratic or constitutional republic) from becoming a dictatorial and draconian nightmere oppressing and enslaving its populace?

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 12, 2011, 03:21:14 AM

Canarchy -> AnCap

Sanarchy -> Socialist Anarchy

And had you used those terms in the first place, you would have completely avoided the confusion.

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Canarchy -> AnCap

Sanarchy -> Socialist Anarchy

The Script

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 12, 2011, 03:12:00 AM

Quote from: LokeRundt on July 12, 2011, 02:28:44 AM

mutually consenting self-organization (even if it has a hierarchy). . .what's the issue? I have a company, so I hire you. I am the owner, and you are the employee. You are free to leave and I am free to fire you (unless we've entered into contractual agreement otherwise). *fails to see the problem*

Canarchy like communism 'hopes' that no subset of the population forms an organization, and becomes powerful enough to enslave the rest.

To make it more simple; what stops an organization becoming so powerful that it can use coercion to enslave the rest ?

Please specify your terms, what is "canarchy" and what is "sanarchy"?

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Quote from: LokeRundt on July 12, 2011, 02:28:44 AM

mutually consenting self-organization (even if it has a hierarchy). . .what's the issue? I have a company, so I hire you. I am the owner, and you are the employee. You are free to leave and I am free to fire you (unless we've entered into contractual agreement otherwise). *fails to see the problem*

Canarchy like communism 'hopes' that no subset of the population forms an organization, and becomes powerful enough to enslave the rest.

To make it more simple; what stops an organization becoming so powerful that it can use coercion to enslave the rest ?

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mutually consenting self-organization (even if it has a hierarchy). . .what's the issue? I have a company, so I hire you. I am the owner, and you are the employee. You are free to leave and I am free to fire you (unless we've entered into contractual agreement otherwise). *fails to see the problem*

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 12, 2011, 02:13:47 AM

The problem with Anarcho-capitalism is that it does not have any explicit mechanism to deal with coercive hierarchies.

Um... Wrong.

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Quote from: joepie91 on July 06, 2011, 06:15:53 AM

I didn't read the entire thread, but I disagree with the OP.

Anonymous for example can be considered an anarchist organization in the sense that there is no central leadership or hierarchy. However, this does not prevent the forming of cells and networks that have their own internal hierarchy. I see anarchy as the freedom to join a system that you feel works best, without being forced into a system - rather than being forced to have no system at all.

While this may be stretching the definition of anarchism a bit, I feel that a society that works with 'cells', where every cell has its own structure (be it communist, socialist, or anything else), and the only rule was to not actively interfere with other cells and their structures... would still fit the definition of anarchism, and would definitely have a chance of working.

It would be considerable different from communism, where everyone is forced to adhere to a centralized communist system.

And before people ask - yes, 'humanity/mankind' as a whole could probably be considered anarchist.

The problem with Canarchy is that it does not have any explicit mechanism to deal with coercive hierarchies. Sanarchy on the other hand does, which I learnt after starting the thread.

Sanarchy is sustainable. Canarchy is a fantasy idea because like communism it does not explicitly deal with coercive human hierarchies.

Sure the processes and firms that each ideology proposes is different. However they both 'hope' that there will not be a subset of the population that uses its force to enslave the rest.

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Quote from: em3rgentOrdr on July 07, 2011, 10:12:35 PM

Quote from: CNMOH on July 07, 2011, 02:54:22 PM

It's hard to say whether anarchism and communism are alike, because there are different flavors of both ideologies. For example, there is anarcho-capitalism, which doesn't really work too well with communist ideals.

Incorrect. Voluntary communism is perfectly permissible inside of an anarcho-capitalist society. Just not the other way around Wink

Well, I agree. I'm just saying they're too different from each other to be considered basically the same thing.

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Quote from: CNMOH on July 07, 2011, 02:54:22 PM

It's hard to say whether anarchism and communism are alike, because there are different flavors of both ideologies. For example, there is anarcho-capitalism, which doesn't really work too well with communist ideals.

Incorrect. Voluntary communism is perfectly permissible inside of an anarcho-capitalist society. Just not the other way around Wink

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It's hard to say whether anarchism and communism are alike, because there are different flavors of both ideologies. For example, there is anarcho-capitalism, which doesn't really work too well with communist ideals.

However, excluding sub-ideologies like anarcho-capitalism, anarchism and communism are very much alike. I feel followers of both ideologies usually want to achieve the same goal, but for different reasons.

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Quote from: joepie91 on July 06, 2011, 06:15:53 AM

I see anarchy as the freedom to join a system that you feel works best, without being forced into a system - rather than being forced to have no system at all.

You've got it.

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I didn't read the entire thread, but I disagree with the OP.

Anonymous for example can be considered an anarchist organization in the sense that there is no central leadership or hierarchy. However, this does not prevent the forming of cells and networks that have their own internal hierarchy. I see anarchy as the freedom to join a system that you feel works best, without being forced into a system - rather than being forced to have no system at all.

While this may be stretching the definition of anarchism a bit, I feel that a society that works with 'cells', where every cell has its own structure (be it communist, socialist, or anything else), and the only rule was to not actively interfere with other cells and their structures... would still fit the definition of anarchism, and would definitely have a chance of working.

It would be considerable different from communism, where everyone is forced to adhere to a centralized communist system.

And before people ask - yes, 'humanity/mankind' as a whole could probably be considered anarchist.

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 03, 2011, 11:04:37 PM

Wait a sec your imposing your definition upon me? That is not very canarchist.

Is not the "Standard of Subject Values" a pillar of Canarchy?

THANKYOU in advance for respecting my liberties.

And how does Canarchy explicitly deal with human hierarchy?

No one is forcing anything on you. The moderators aren't going to kick you off the forum for not using "an-cap", but neither do we have to dialogue with you. If we so choose we can ignore your posts where you use "canarchy" and socially ostracize you by refusing to dialogue. That is not coercion. That is voluntary disassociation.

Also, there is nothing wrong with trying to persuade you to use the commonly accepted abbreviations for words in order to maintain semantic consistency and clarity. Aren't you the one who was claiming libertarians always distort commonly accepted definitions?

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 03, 2011, 11:04:37 PM

Wait a sec your imposing your definition upon me? That is not very canarchist.

Is not the "Standard of Subject Values" a pillar of Canarchy?

THANKYOU in advance for respecting my liberties.

And how does Canarchy explicitly deal with human hierarchy?

What's this Canarchy? I already told you how anarcho-capitalism will deal with hierarchy.

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Wait a sec your imposing your definition upon me? That is not very canarchist.

Is not the "Standard of Subject Values" a pillar of Canarchy?

THANKYOU in advance for respecting my liberties.

And how does Canarchy explicitly deal with human hierarchy?

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 03, 2011, 09:57:03 PM

So it will not produce utopia? Okay, so what will be the non-utopian elements of Canarchy?

And how does Canarchy explicitly deal with human-hierarchy?

AnCap.

AnCap.

AN...CAP. Thank you.

The non-utopian elements will obviously be the human ones. ie: people will still be people, and some will try to hurt others.

Any voluntary hierarchy is A-OK, but let me stress that: Voluntary.

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So it will not produce utopia? Okay, so what will be the non-utopian elements of Canarchy?

And how does Canarchy explicitly deal with human-hierarchy?

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Quote from: smellyBobby on July 03, 2011, 09:17:27 PM

Canarchy(Anarcho-Capitalist) just like Communism will deviate from the ideal definition. Communism presents an utopian state, just like Canarchy does. So if the utopian state presented by Communism is impossible, then so is the utopian state presented by Canarchy. Don't dismiss the ideal definitions of other ideologies and expect that your definitions are flawless. That the utopian rules that your present are somehow above the utopian rules presented by another ideology.

Sanarchy(Anarcho-Socialist) has presented a mechanism with explicitly dealing with human hierarchy. Canarchy still has no explicit method of dealing with human hierarchy.

1. The accepted abbreviation is AnCap.
2. Nobody said that AnCap will produce a Utopia. I know I didn't. We're simply saying that a Monopoly is not the best way to produce goods or services, and that includes the goods and services Government currently provides.

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Quote from: Atlas link=topic=23047.msg290330#msg290330

We're bound to evolve as a species. There are no set laws.

Wrong. Evolution is bound by the inherent organizing nature of the universe.

Quote

Quote from: hugolp link=topic=23047.msg290473#msg290473

Btw, communism is a very hierarchical system, is political darwinism.

Quote from: smellyBobby

Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production.

Quote from: hugolp

Its very simple to understand the difference between what someone claims and what they really offer.

Correct! It is simple to see the difference. For example when you want a lawless society, you really want no mechanisms of accountability. When you say that your society will be fair, it in fact will be unfair and power is held by the capitalists. When you say that your "new" Society will work, it actually won't.

It's simple to see the difference between what is meant, and what will happen.

Canarchy(Anarcho-Capitalist) just like Communism will deviate from the ideal definition. Communism presents an utopian state, just like Canarchy does. So if the utopian state presented by Communism is impossible, then so is the utopian state presented by Canarchy. Don't dismiss the ideal definitions of other ideologies and expect that your definitions are flawless. That the utopian rules that your present are somehow above the utopian rules presented by another ideology.

Sanarchy(Anarcho-Socialist) has presented a mechanism with explicitly dealing with human hierarchy. Canarchy still has no explicit method of dealing with human hierarchy.

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