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Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Foundation - page 30. (Read 127621 times)

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
September 28, 2012, 03:21:24 PM
Hey Erik, why the change of heart?

Politicians are regularly smeared for "flip-flopping." Personally, I respect a man who has the integrity to change his mind and  accept the consequences.

That said, It looks like Erik was simply being cautious with his words. Another respectable trait.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 03:19:43 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.

Thank for for pointing that out.


No I'm sorry. I'm not going to let you off the hook this easy.

You made a claim that the Foundation cannot gain any power because it is limited by it's bylaws. I then made a reference to the bylaws that you said is not the section governing what the Foundation can or can't do upon which I asked if you'd be so kind to quote the section that is. You did not, instead you asked a question which implied that you in fact have no limits imposed by your bylaws except the limit of Bitcoin's design which doesn't allow you to control it how it's run. I then asked why you lied such limits were imposed by bylaws.

My question is this:

Can you please quote the section of your bylaws that limits what the Foundation can or can't do with regards to acquiring or increasing it's power?

If not, why did you say such limits existed?

Btw if I need to I'll compose a post with all the quotes matching the above.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 03:18:56 PM
Hegemony is powerful:

The current five participants in the fixing, who must be members of the London Bullion Market Association, are:
Scotia-Mocatta — successor to Mocatta & Goldsmid and part of Bank of Nova Scotia
Barclays Capital — Replaced N M Rothschild & Sons when they abdicated
Deutsche Bank — Owner of Sharps Pixley, itself the merger of Sharps Wilkins with Pixley & Abell
HSBC — Owner of Samuel Montagu & Co.
Société Générale
Every day at 10.30 and 15.00 local time, five representatives of investment banks meet in a small room at Rothschild's London headquarters on St Swithin's Lane. In the centre is the chairperson, who is by tradition appointed by the Rothschild bank, although the bank itself has largely withdrawn from the trading.
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
September 28, 2012, 03:18:23 PM
Hey Erik, why the change of heart?:

Gavin - seems like a reasonable idea.

Bitcoin would still have all the advantages of being decentralized (no central server, no office to raid and shut down. etc), but gets the added advantages of a core organization to guide it. Perhaps the core organization will get destroyed by the evil powers, but I'm not sure that'd be incredibly damaging to Bitcoin as a protocol. The community would just grow a new command center when the old was destroyed.

The main danger is if the community trusts such an organization too much.  For example- if everyone assumed the client version put out by the organization was trustworthy, then there is serious danger. A group as you propose should probably exist, but the community should remain skeptical of it, and always constructively critical.

After a few mins of more thinking...

Perhaps the idea of an "official" group is not wise.  Instead, the core dev team could create an organization, with special logo and name. This organization would be the de facto official group, but only so long as it held up its reputation. At all times, other groups can form and compete for "de facto officialness."

In essence then, this would just be a Non-profit, spontaneously organized by individuals. If multiple such organizations sprout up, then each community member can support whomever they wish.

Think of it like a market for competing representatives. No group official by law, but any group official by market sentiment. We would see one group come to dominate the sentiment, but Bitcoin would not be irrevocably tied to it.

No group should be granted an explicit monopoly... but an implicit market-derived monopoly would not bother me.


And today:

"Warning - while you were reading 193 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

LOL

For the record, I LOVE that the Foundation exists now. I think this is a huge positive step for Bitcoin. Few negatives, plenty of positives. I also understand the concern many people feel - we should always be diligent and skeptical of anyone trying to be "the face" of Bitcoin. But in this case specifically, and to the extent this Foundation can act in certain manners for certain goals, I think it's a very legitimate development and I'll be joining as a paying member here soon.



I don't see a change of heart in my above statements. Anyone can make another Foundation or group to develop, make standards, raise money, represent itself, etc.  I would prefer for this Bitcoin Foundation to not label themselves verbatim as "The Official Organization In Charge Of Bitcoin" etc., and I don't think they're doing that. The language used will be important, but the Foundation should earn it's "official" reputation through its actions and relationships with people, not through "claiming" it explicitly, if that makes sense.

Again, a market-based, central organization is something I have no problem with. So long as others can organize their own organizations with their own agendas, all is well. I will say, however, if the Bitcoin Foundation ever seeks Government legislation which curtails the decentralized, market-based nature of Bitcoin, I will be vociferously opposed. I do not believe anyone on the board desires such legislation.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1008
If you want to walk on water, get out of the boat
September 28, 2012, 03:17:51 PM
Bitcoin should not be anti-government. It should just ignore them. We are here for a free market, not to make governments happy
hero member
Activity: 597
Merit: 500
September 28, 2012, 03:17:11 PM
Some masks are getting off nowadays.


If bitcoin wants to succeed, it cannot be anti-government at this point.

Governments are a force to be reckoned with, and if you don't understand that, or see how it relates to bitcoin, then I have nothing else to say.

For bitcoin to succeed, it can't be some seedy currency for the underbelly of the internet or a tax haven for criminals. For serious companies to seriously consider bitcoin, bitcoin cannot be a legal liability, and it is construed as one right now. This is why the Foundation is a step forward in my opinion.

+1

Bitcoin, as a technology, should not be connected to the stigma of "anti-government" for very good, strategic reasons. We know what it is, and what it will do, and we should leave it at that.

So we need some Foundation to talk to the media and explain what bitcoin is in favor and what against?

BITCOIN itself is just a tool. People who uses it is the responsible of their behaviour. Stop manipulating.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 03:16:46 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.

Thank for for pointing that out.

I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners understand we will get upset if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price, making government partnerships and lobbying for regulations that only benefit certain parts of the Bitcoin industry over others.

Matt, how the hell can we set the Bitcoin price?

Jeez you make stupid comments to scare off people when you and I both know thats not possible.

Stop trolling Matt


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fixing

On 12 September 1919 at 11:00am the five principal gold bullion traders and refiners of the day performed the first gold fixing. The original members were N M Rothschild & Sons, Mocatta & Goldsmid, Pixley & Abell, Samuel Montagu & Co. and Sharps Wilkins. The gold price was determined to be four pounds 18 shillings and ninepence (GBP 4.18s.9d = 4.9375) per fine ounce (troy ounce). The New York gold price was US$19.39.[1] The first few fixings were conducted by telephone until the members started meeting at the Rothschild offices in New Court, St Swithin's Lane.

Stupid response yields a stupid answer.

Bitcoin is traded on a free market, Gold is not.

Gold price has never been on a free market, even when they claims it was, and you know that.

Bitcoin price can never be set by 1 entity, because the price is what Bitcoiners say it is.

Stop making shit up Matt

-Charlie

It will stop being a free market once all of Bitcoin exchanges get together and make a trust to set the price. Doesn't The Bitcoin Foundation unite exchanges?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 03:13:55 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.

Thank for for pointing that out.

I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners understand we will get upset if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price, making government partnerships and lobbying for regulations that only benefit certain parts of the Bitcoin industry over others.

Matt, how the hell can we set the Bitcoin price?

Jeez you make stupid comments to scare off people when you and I both know thats not possible.

Stop trolling Matt


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fixing

On 12 September 1919 at 11:00am the five principal gold bullion traders and refiners of the day performed the first gold fixing. The original members were N M Rothschild & Sons, Mocatta & Goldsmid, Pixley & Abell, Samuel Montagu & Co. and Sharps Wilkins. The gold price was determined to be four pounds 18 shillings and ninepence (GBP 4.18s.9d = 4.9375) per fine ounce (troy ounce). The New York gold price was US$19.39.[1] The first few fixings were conducted by telephone until the members started meeting at the Rothschild offices in New Court, St Swithin's Lane.

Stupid response yields a stupid answer.

Bitcoin is traded on a free market, Gold is not.

Gold price has never been on a free market, even when they claims it was, and you know that.

Bitcoin price can never be set by 1 entity, because the price is what Bitcoiners say it is.

Stop making shit up Matt

-Charlie
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 03:12:36 PM
I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners

It's not pro-hierarchy. It's realism. We live in a hierarchical world where hierarchies matter, regardless your opinion of them.

Quote
if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price

That's utterly impossible.

It's done to gold. It can be done to Bitcoin through an organization just like this one combined with regulatory powers.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 03:12:02 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.

Thank for for pointing that out.

I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners understand we will get upset if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price, making government partnerships and lobbying for regulations that only benefit certain parts of the Bitcoin industry over others.

Matt, how the hell can we set the Bitcoin price?

Jeez you make stupid comments to scare off people when you and I both know thats not possible.

Stop trolling Matt


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_fixing

On 12 September 1919 at 11:00am the five principal gold bullion traders and refiners of the day performed the first gold fixing. The original members were N M Rothschild & Sons, Mocatta & Goldsmid, Pixley & Abell, Samuel Montagu & Co. and Sharps Wilkins. The gold price was determined to be four pounds 18 shillings and ninepence (GBP 4.18s.9d = 4.9375) per fine ounce (troy ounce). The New York gold price was US$19.39.[1] The first few fixings were conducted by telephone until the members started meeting at the Rothschild offices in New Court, St Swithin's Lane.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
September 28, 2012, 03:11:25 PM
I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners

It's not pro-hierarchy. It's realism. We live in a hierarchical world where hierarchies matter, regardless your opinion of them.

Quote
if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price

That's utterly impossible.
full member
Activity: 159
Merit: 100
September 28, 2012, 03:11:17 PM
Hi,

What is the difference between https://www.bitcoinfoundation.com/ and .org version?

The first seem to be in stranger´s hands
legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
September 28, 2012, 03:10:48 PM
If bitcoin wants to succeed, it cannot be anti-government at this point.

Governments are a force to be reckoned with, and if you don't understand that, or see how it relates to bitcoin, then I have nothing else to say.

For bitcoin to succeed, it can't be some seedy currency for the underbelly of the internet or a tax haven for criminals. For serious companies to seriously consider bitcoin, bitcoin cannot be a legal liability, and it is construed as one right now. This is why the Foundation is a step forward in my opinion.

+1

Bitcoin, as a technology, should not be connected to the stigma of "anti-government" for very good, strategic reasons. We know what it is, and what it will do, and we should leave it at that.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 03:10:33 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.

Thank for for pointing that out.

I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners understand we will get upset if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price, making government partnerships and lobbying for regulations that only benefit certain parts of the Bitcoin industry over others.

Matt, how the hell can we set the Bitcoin price?

Jeez you make stupid comments to scare off people when you and I both know thats not possible.

Stop trolling Matt
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 03:09:39 PM
I agree with the sentiment that at this point the bitcoin experiment cannot be inherently anti-government if it is to succeed in the end.

Bitcoin is inherently anti-government since it takes away power from those who would live at the expense of others.


Exactly and this board could easily one day neuter Bitcoin from being a free currency to a fiat, government-controlled one by making standards for the protocol that everyone would be forced to abide by through corporate and social influence.

Corporate and social influence != force. That is the mistake you're making.  There is absolutely no problem with "influence" and every problem with "force." The Foundation will have lots of influence (and I think the current board has earned it), but no force, and thus I welcome it.

Influence is being expressed in either two ways:

People either want to emulate you, or you force them to conform. I feel forced to conform but I'd be perfectly fine if I had the option to emulate you.
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 03:09:22 PM
I just hope the pro-hierarchy Bitcoiners understand we will get upset if they start trying to set the Bitcoin price, making government partnerships and lobbying for regulations that only benefit certain parts of the Bitcoin industry over others.
vip
Activity: 198
Merit: 101
September 28, 2012, 03:07:30 PM
So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?

Pay attention to his post, he was quoting what someone else said.
legendary
Activity: 1540
Merit: 1029
September 28, 2012, 03:06:37 PM
Wow this is a hot topic. Definitely good points being made on both sides.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 03:06:08 PM
Your bylaws reference is speaking of something totally different, corporate law, that states that the foundation can sell t-shirts but not illegal firearms..nothing to do with promoting Bitcoin

-Charlie

But you said you are limited by them. Could be so kind to point out the section of the bylaws that limits you to what the Foundation can do?

You tell me, what can the foundation do thats not already obvious? We have no control over Bitcoin, Bitcoin runs itself.

Wait a min, you said (in bold):


The problem I have with this Foundation is that it asserted itself over this experiment and the community. No one asked you to. No one gave you permission. You just did it. You created a corporation to wield power no one granted you.

THIS! HEAR HEAR!

The problem with both you and shad0wbitz (which ive pointed out many times) is that you assume the foundation is assering itself, you assume we are wielding power which in fact we are not.

Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Foundation has no power or control, and no one owns the foundation its owned by you. Like I said, when elections come the whole board can be replaced and you can be on it

-Charlie

This contradicts your Executive Directors statement in regards to standards. You guys want to make standards for security and the Bitcoin protocol. You are asserting yourself in many ways, especially with your proposed certifications and the cost it takes for businesses to join.

Your foundation will eventually gain power if the industries within form trusts to control the message and force competitors out of its veil of legitimacy.

Matt,

That has nothing to do with power

Again, all you do is assume without facts.

"Your foundation will eventually gain power"

It's not my foundation, its YOUR foundation, Ive stated this many times.
We cant gain power, in fact we cannot do anything outside the bylaws.

The certifications are for anyone to join and use. If you dont like it, don't join it or start your own foundation.

If you have problems, join the board, and enjoy

Have a great day

-Charlie

So what you are telling me now is that you lied in your post and that in fact you can gain power and are not limited by your bylaws except you can't control how Bitcoin is being run?
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 250
September 28, 2012, 03:05:25 PM
If bitcoin wants to succeed, it cannot be anti-government at this point.

Governments are a force to be reckoned with, and if you don't understand that, or see how it relates to bitcoin, then I have nothing else to say.

For bitcoin to succeed, it can't be some seedy currency for the underbelly of the internet or a tax haven for criminals. For serious companies to seriously consider bitcoin, bitcoin cannot be a legal liability, and it is construed as one right now. This is why the Foundation is a step forward in my opinion.
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