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Topic: [ANN] Bitcoin Foundation - page 32. (Read 127621 times)

legendary
Activity: 1008
Merit: 1023
Democracy is the original 51% attack
September 28, 2012, 02:46:59 PM
"Warning - while you were reading 193 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

LOL

For the record, I LOVE that the Foundation exists now. I think this is a huge positive step for Bitcoin. Few negatives, plenty of positives. I also understand the concern many people feel - we should always be diligent and skeptical of anyone trying to be "the face" of Bitcoin. But in this case specifically, and to the extent this Foundation can act in certain manners for certain goals, I think it's a very legitimate development and I'll be joining as a paying member here soon.



I must wonder if you'd be saying the same if Charlie wasn't a board member. Not that I think you're trying to be manipulative, it's just hard to believe you are looking at this objectively and aren't highly biased.


Please, don't be absurd.  Roll Eyes  If Charlie was doing something I disagreed with, he would know, and I'd have no problem discussing it on the forum. It happens that Charlie and I tend to agree on almost everything, especially after some discussion... though he's still slightly too statist for my taste, though this is changing fairly quickly, because Charlie is a smart guy Smiley

I've long been in favor of a more formal, more structured Foundation type organization to foster Bitcoin growth. I worry that people do not understand the difference between voluntary, market-based order and coercive order. They think the Foundation is the latter, when it's not.

A decentralized system can (and indeed, ought to) have certain "nodes" of organization and structure. It is the same dynamic which occurs with the bitcoin exchanges. The system is decentralized, yes, but it needs points of centralization (again, this is market-based centralization) to carry out specific functions such as bringing many buyers and sellers together to trade in the case of exchanges. Those who think exchanges shouldn't exist, and Bitcoin should only be traded among P2P systems, are not thinking clearly, and don't understand how markets operate. And just as one exchange may hold "influence" on the market, it cannot control it. The same is true with the Foundation.

Do not fear private, voluntary organization among intelligent, productive people. Avoiding, or condemning, such organization is antithetical to Bitcoin progress. All the best Bitcoin successes will be brought about not by perfectly decentralized, independent action of individuals, but by the voluntary cooperation and structure each individual builds with others. The Foundation is just another example of this, and I'm excited to see the progress this structure will bring.


legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 02:46:03 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.

You must be leaving an impression.
Yes, they have the impression they are the parents and everyone else is a child that shouldn't be so rebellious. We should all conform to their standards and "democracy".

Matt,

Stop assuming everyone against you is part of the foundation, because they are not.

People are allowed to have opinions without being personally attacked by you

No one asked you to conform to anything, you can do as you please.

-Charlie

We cant gain power, in fact we cannot do anything outside the bylaws.

What exactly is excluded by your bylaws then anyway, especially since they are written so open ended:

Quote
ARTICLE II - PURPOSES

Section 2.1 Purposes: The Corporation is an association of persons having a common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote that common business interest and to engage in any lawful activity permitted under section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code, or the corresponding section of any future federal tax code. More specifically, the purposes of the Corporation include, but are not limited to, promotion, protection, and standardization of distributed-digital currency and transactions systems including the Bitcoin system as well as similar and related technologies.

The way I read this you can do whatever you want as long as you follow the current or future US laws which basically can be anything. How is that a limitation in any way shape or form?

Will I get a reply to this Charlie?

Yes if you can wait more than 10 minutes  Cheesy

If you dont want people treating you like a child, allow us some time to respond.

I was responding to you when you said (or someone said) "Foundation will yield Bitcoin power"
My response was pointing out that in fact the foundation has no power whatsoever and cannot yield any.

Your bylaws reference is speaking of something totally different, corporate law, that states that the foundation can sell t-shirts but not illegal firearms..nothing to do with promoting Bitcoin

-Charlie
full member
Activity: 159
Merit: 100
September 28, 2012, 02:44:27 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.

You must be leaving an impression.
Yes, they have the impression they are the parents and everyone else is a child that shouldn't be so rebellious. We should all conform to their standards and "democracy".

Hopefuly, Whatever is being happened - We fortunately have realy competent and great people in foundation.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 02:43:22 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.

You must be leaving an impression.
Yes, they have the impression they are the parents and everyone else is a child that shouldn't be so rebellious. We should all conform to their standards and "democracy".

Democracy? Where?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:42:31 PM
We cant gain power, in fact we cannot do anything outside the bylaws.

What exactly is excluded by your bylaws then anyway, especially since they are written so open ended:

Quote
ARTICLE II - PURPOSES

Section 2.1 Purposes: The Corporation is an association of persons having a common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote that common business interest and to engage in any lawful activity permitted under section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code, or the corresponding section of any future federal tax code. More specifically, the purposes of the Corporation include, but are not limited to, promotion, protection, and standardization of distributed-digital currency and transactions systems including the Bitcoin system as well as similar and related technologies.

The way I read this you can do whatever you want as long as you follow the current or future US laws which basically can be anything. How is that a limitation in any way shape or form?

Will I get a reply to this Charlie?
jr. member
Activity: 56
Merit: 1
September 28, 2012, 02:39:57 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.

You must be leaving an impression.
Yes, they have the impression they are the parents and everyone else is a child that shouldn't be so rebellious. We should all conform to their standards and "democracy".
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 02:39:08 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.

You must be leaving an impression.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:37:56 PM
People keep replying to me as if I'm 5 years old or mentally retarded. Please stop it.
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 02:37:16 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?

Hell, I'll leave this foundation and join yours if I like it  Grin

I hate to keep having to point this out but its NOT MY foundation.

Your statement should say "Will Gavin leave the current Foudation and a newer one that I helped put together?"

I other words it's up to him. I think it's not wrong to assume it would only ever happen if it benefited either you or him, not Bitcoin per se. So much for "I can start a new foundation.."

You could go start up a different foundation whose purpose to support bitcoin and the developers of alternate clients.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:34:20 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?

Hell, I'll leave this foundation and join yours if I like it  Grin

I hate to keep having to point this out but its NOT MY foundation.

Your statement should say "Will Gavin leave the current Foudation and a newer one that I helped put together?"

I other words it's up to him. I think it's not wrong to assume it would only ever happen if it benefited either you or him, not Bitcoin per se. So much for "I can start a new foundation.."
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:31:36 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?

Would Gavin even be required to leave TBF to join a different Foundation?

Well let's see, you have a foundation that is called the Bitcoin Foudation with the lead dev and his team and then you have something else foundation without the lead dev and his team. Which one do you think can accomplish more and which one do you think wont even be taken seriously if there ever should be a conflict?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:29:42 PM
We cant gain power, in fact we cannot do anything outside the bylaws.

What exactly is excluded by your bylaws then anyway, especially since they are written so open ended:

Quote
ARTICLE II - PURPOSES

Section 2.1 Purposes: The Corporation is an association of persons having a common business interest, the purpose of which is to promote that common business interest and to engage in any lawful activity permitted under section 501(c)(6) of the Internal Revenue Code, or the corresponding section of any future federal tax code. More specifically, the purposes of the Corporation include, but are not limited to, promotion, protection, and standardization of distributed-digital currency and transactions systems including the Bitcoin system as well as similar and related technologies.

The way I read this you can do whatever you want as long as you follow the current or future US laws which basically can be anything. How is that a limitation in any way shape or form?
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 02:28:12 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?

Would Gavin even be required to leave TBF to join a different Foundation?
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 02:27:25 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?

Hell, I'll leave this foundation and join yours if I like it  Grin

I hate to keep having to point this out but its NOT MY foundation.

Your statement should say "Will Gavin leave the current Foudation and a newer one that I helped put together?"
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1003
September 28, 2012, 02:24:34 PM
Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Will Gavin leave your Foudation and join mine?
legendary
Activity: 1795
Merit: 1208
This is not OK.
September 28, 2012, 02:18:42 PM
Godwins law!

(or has it already occured here?)
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
Those of you against 'The Foundation', consider this:

You're on Atlas' side.

Just think about that for a moment.

Hitler was a vegetarian. Try to not be so blatantly manipulative.

You are my hero lol
hero member
Activity: 826
Merit: 1000
September 28, 2012, 02:16:13 PM
Those of you against 'The Foundation', consider this:

You're on Atlas' side.

Just think about that for a moment.

Hitler was a vegetarian. Try to not be so blatantly manipulative.
legendary
Activity: 1795
Merit: 1208
This is not OK.
September 28, 2012, 02:15:10 PM
Those of you against 'The Foundation', consider this:

You're on Atlas' side.

Just think about that for a moment.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1000
Charlie 'Van Bitcoin' Shrem
September 28, 2012, 02:13:05 PM

The problem I have with this Foundation is that it asserted itself over this experiment and the community. No one asked you to. No one gave you permission. You just did it. You created a corporation to wield power no one granted you.

THIS! HEAR HEAR!

The problem with both you and shad0wbitz (which ive pointed out many times) is that you assume the foundation is assering itself, you assume we are wielding power which in fact we are not.

Its not a complicated structure to understand and you can create your own foundation to help further Bitcoin.

Foundation has no power or control, and no one owns the foundation its owned by you. Like I said, when elections come the whole board can be replaced and you can be on it

-Charlie

This contradicts your Executive Directors statement in regards to standards. You guys want to make standards for security and the Bitcoin protocol. You are asserting yourself in many ways, especially with your proposed certifications and the cost it takes for businesses to join.

Your foundation will eventually gain power if the industries within form trusts to control the message and force competitors out of its veil of legitimacy.

Matt,

That has nothing to do with power

Again, all you do is assume without facts.

" Your foundation will eventually gain power"

It's not my foundation, its YOUR foundation, Ive stated this many times.
We cant gain power, in fact we cannot do anything outside the bylaws.

The certifications are for anyone to join and use. If you dont like it, don't join it or start your own foundation.

If you have problems, join the board, and enjoy

Have a great day

-Charlie

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