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Topic: [ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven. - page 18. (Read 73916 times)

hero member
Activity: 1204
Merit: 755
Homo Sapiens Bitcoinerthalensis
Notice the title of this thread, "[ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven."

So, let’s see what the GRiN community wants, your vote may change the direction of this project. Should David Burkett (creator of Grin++ wallet) be part of the Grin core team?
Vote here: https://www.strawpoll.me/19637251

Without knowing any details, that was a solid "yes".
member
Activity: 126
Merit: 15
Notice the title of this thread, "[ANN] Grin | PoW Mining | Electronic transactions for all. Community driven."

So, let’s see what the GRiN community wants, your vote may change the direction of this project. Should David Burkett (creator of Grin++ wallet) be part of the Grin core team?
Vote here: https://www.strawpoll.me/19637251
legendary
Activity: 3164
Merit: 1506
Is grin ready to be an anonymous enough cryptocoin to be the primary medium of exchange in the forum for protection and unlinkability?

Our tormentors will begin identifying independent currency exchangers on online forums as illegal money transmitting businesses.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it

2. If you're already making ASICs for every other algo, why not c29? It would just make sense so you can squeeze every penny out of your production line.

Because a mean ASIC would need over 4GB of external DRAM, limiting its advantage over a GPU
Because a lean ASIC, while still needing 128MB of on-chip SRAM, incurs a computational overhead of having to compute 64 siphashes even if only one is needed.
And last but not least, because each Cuckaroo29 variant only lasts for 6 months before being replaced by a substantially different one, leaving no time to ROI.


Alright alright my real point was that if you know how to creates ASICs you aren't going to move drugs in Afghanistan. It was a terrible example of trying to solely earn profit. I'm always out for profit in my business but not by any means necessary.

You are answering your own question here.
legendary
Activity: 1382
Merit: 1123

2. If you're already making ASICs for every other algo, why not c29? It would just make sense so you can squeeze every penny out of your production line.

Because a mean ASIC would need over 4GB of external DRAM, limiting its advantage over a GPU
Because a lean ASIC, while still needing 128MB of on-chip SRAM, incurs a computational overhead of having to compute 64 siphashes even if only one is needed.
And last but not least, because each Cuckaroo29 variant only lasts for 6 months before being replaced by a substantially different one, leaving no time to ROI.


Alright alright my real point was that if you know how to creates ASICs you aren't going to move drugs in Afghanistan. It was a terrible example of trying to solely earn profit. I'm always out for profit in my business but not by any means necessary.
legendary
Activity: 990
Merit: 1108

2. If you're already making ASICs for every other algo, why not c29? It would just make sense so you can squeeze every penny out of your production line.

Because a mean ASIC would need over 4GB of external DRAM, limiting its advantage over a GPU
Because a lean ASIC, while still needing 128MB of on-chip SRAM, incurs a computational overhead of having to compute 64 siphashes even if only one is needed.
And last but not least, because each Cuckaroo29 variant only lasts for 6 months before being replaced by a substantially different one, leaving no time to ROI.
legendary
Activity: 1382
Merit: 1123
Secret cartel mining a shitcoin ... lol Dont get taken away by these absurd fancies. For that matter, if hypothetical cartels made it their mission to pursue really big profit, It would be more profitable for them to export heroine from Afghanistan, and have people sniff it at home and then manufacture asics out of metal talons found in locks in which bags with heroin are hidden.

1. They aren't secret. They're just unknown to the general public.
2. If you're already making ASICs for every other algo, why not c29? It would just make sense so you can squeeze every penny out of your production line.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley

You talk of a decentralized network, however, a cryptocoin that can change the mining algorithm from the decision of a group of people anytime they order it is centralized. It is also not an assurance that it will stop Asics.

@Gash. Remove your bias. Let us pretend that a cryptocoin with a similar monetary policy as Grin has reached $50 billion market capitalization.
It seems that network may be centralized as cryptocoins may transform the mining algorithm.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley

You talk of a decentralized network, however, a cryptocoin that can change the mining algorithm from the decision of a group of people anytime they order it is centralized. It is also not an assurance that it will stop Asics.

@Gash. Remove your bias. Let us pretend that a cryptocoin with a similar monetary policy as Grin has reached $50 billion market capitalization.
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley

You talk of a decentralized network, however, a cryptocoin that can change the mining algorithm from the decision of a group of people anytime they order it is centralized. It is also not an assurance that it will stop Asics.

Not when it is done by consensus. Wink
really it will be based on consensus.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley

You talk of a decentralized network, however, a cryptocoin that can change the mining algorithm from the decision of a group of people anytime they order it is centralized. It is also not an assurance that it will stop Asics.

Not when it is done by consensus. Wink
legendary
Activity: 3164
Merit: 1506
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley

You talk of a decentralized network, however, a cryptocoin that can change the mining algorithm from the decision of a group of people anytime they order it is centralized. It is also not an assurance that it will stop Asics.

@Gash. Remove your bias. Let us pretend that a cryptocoin with a similar monetary policy as Grin has reached $50 billion market capitalization.
full member
Activity: 657
Merit: 124
@tromp. Would Grin's monetary policy not end similar to the diamond market where different groups come into agreement and does artificial scarcity by controling the supply of diamonds released in the market?

Release of Grin into the market is controlled by mathematics dictating 1 Grin/sec, which is beyond the control of any cartel.

A cartel of all chip manufacturers, by TSCM, Samsung, Intel, etc. could produce superior Grin ASICs and keep them all to themselves, running them in their own data centers, and thus mine a majority of Grins. It would still be 1 Grin per second.
There would be little point in doing that for Grin (at a huge loss) when it could be done for Bitcoin instead (at a smaller loss).
In any case, in that exceedingly unlikely event, Grin could then change PoW.

Quote
I reckon Asic miners might form a similar type of understanding. Would it not be the best for the Grin project if it copied Monero's exploration on Asic resistance to avoid formation of similar power groups?

Monero is just one ASIC away from realizing that their quest for ASIC resistance is futile.


However the cartel would hold most of the coins from being released on the market to create artificial scarcity and manipulate the price, similar to what a cartel is doing on the diamond market. The cartel will have power over coin issuance. It might appear like they are the federal reserve hehehe.

In any case, agreed. That was why we in the Aeon community supported smooth and stoffu's hardfork to kangaroo12 mining algorithm and welcomed Asics. However, for infinite emission, I reckon Asic resistance might be more of a serious concern?

@Hueristic. What the source of this information?

Secret cartel mining a shitcoin ... lol Dont get taken away by these absurd fancies. For that matter, if hypothetical cartels made it their mission to pursue really big profit, It would be more profitable for them to export heroine from Afghanistan, and have people sniff it at home and then manufacture asics out of metal talons found in locks in which bags with heroin are hidden.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective.

Just like the death penalty is 100% effective at preventing homocides?

The more serious your readiness to switch PoW, the more stealthy the ASICs will be operated...
until you're not sure whether they operate at all.
Or whether they're FPGAs, that will be very unimpressed with your PoW switch.

IIRC your Coocko Cycle was supposed to be the asic cure, so just because you failed you now think everyone should quit trying?

Your death penalty analogy is horrible, try harder. I think your main misconception is the cost involved in ramping up new chip designs.

Secret Asic and FPGA will always leak out the trick is to make ROI before the market can react in this war. Whenever has jumps non-linear the community notices, its not like you can stealth for long and also ROI against a determined opponent. That is qualified with the fact there is a standby algo available, creating one after the fact just feeds the asic and I would not be surprised if there is some profit going on there in between the lines.

I was interested in looking into polymorphic algos and that would have been a gpu boon and possible the new hybrid fpgas but back then there were no hybrid fpgas.

There are correlations when studying Quantum resistance.
legendary
Activity: 990
Merit: 1108
All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective.

Just like the death penalty is 100% effective at preventing homocides?

The more serious your readiness to switch PoW, the more stealthy the ASICs will be operated...
until you're not sure whether they operate at all.
Or whether they're FPGAs, that will be very unimpressed with your PoW switch.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704


You misread my statement, I never said there were current ASICS and do not believe there are or even will be if the Devs do as I suggested years ago and have a backup algo ready to go as a deterrent. AAMOF if they had done it back then then we never would have had the secret ASIC mining issue we did have in the first place as we could have forked immediately instead of waiting 6 months when the rate doubled when the first cryptonight ASICs were created(2017 IIRC) and that would have made their venture unprofitable and therefore they would not have wasted the resources to try it again.

All you need to do for a deterrent is to prove you are willing to do what it takes, mutually assured destruction is the ultimate form of this (I.E. a Doomsday machine) and it is 100% effective. That is an example it would be foolish to make a doomsday for a decentralized network as an asic friendly would be preferable to that but I think you get the idea I am trying to put across here. I think my mother described it best when she said I would cut off my nose to spite my face. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3164
Merit: 1506
@Febo @Hueristic. I have forgotten that stoffu already explained about this issue. Miners mine on a higher hashrate in RandomX because it is faster to compute than cryptonight.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.53324704
legendary
Activity: 2744
Merit: 1288
@Hueristic. I thought that was a joke. You might be correct, however hehehe. Monero's hashrate has already risen to more than double in 2 months. That might be the first sign that Asics are back again.


Miners never all update first day. With Monero changing mining algo that favorite CPU miners also meant that many GPU miners moved to other coins. If all would go immediately back to Monero then hash rate would be probably higher then today. They did not. Some did. CPU miners definitely did and some CPU miners that was waiting for the fork joined. Actually many. And new one were then joining every week. Not to mention price of Monero doubled from time of the fork.  So hash rate should double simply because of that. It will actually. It will be soon 2 GH/s and then 3 and more.
legendary
Activity: 3164
Merit: 1506
@Hueristic. I thought that was a joke. You might be correct, however hehehe. Monero's hashrate has already risen to more than double in 2 months. That might be the first sign that Asics are back again.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
hero member
Activity: 2366
Merit: 838
To continue for Febo, Grin is not only favored by the altcoin community. Some of the oldest of bitcoiners also support it as shown by the donations that came from very old miner public keys.
One of them are theymos, who read the whitepapter of Mimble Wimble years ago, and in 2019 added Grin coin as the second means to buy the forum's Copper membership. I think in the long run, the Grin coin has very good potential to beat Monero, when its inflational rate decrease and the coin jumps into deflational phase.
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