Topic: [ANN] HEAT: 3.0 crypto*multisig fiat*a2a hft*1000tps*DSA*PoS+PoP*e2ee chat* - page 309. (Read 418460 times)

Excellent points there.

Yes, coming up soon!

There are dozens of ICOs a day that dont have a website, they dont have a roadmap, they dont have RL dev pics and bios.

HEAT has all of these things, and they are doing their ICO through a small exchange to ensure only people reading up on the project get to invest in it early on. = Smarter investors = longer holders (for the majority, that might be safe to say).

This projects got a lot of promise, and 10k-13k sats right now is a dream entry.... think of Lisk / waves - their best ICO prices where 30kish... and they dropped. This project only has upward potential.    Lets do it HEAT!

PS. Any sig or avatar campaign info?

See, I have good news for you: I won't bother you anymore. I'm okay with the answers you gave, even if there are still a lot of points I have a different opinion about and also some questions that are unanswered. But, I'm just responsible for me and I made my decision if or if not to invest.


But let me tell you also this:

Besides the fact that you guys did not prepare basic informations like a Whitepaper, and besides the fact that you list a lot of "headline-incentives" to buy the ICO in the Ann without detailing it out to give more information which would give more trust, it's especially the way you react on questions that makes me suspicious. I see dishonesty in that.

Because: While I'm obviously critical I never was personal offensive or not on topic. I don't take things personal but I take things serious. As an Investor I try to be as professional as I can be. I want to know if I see reasons to believe in a project and that means especially in the team before I give away my money and take the normal risk that is given even in the best projects. We are in a high-risk-market but it shouldn't be Las Vegas. And it shouldn't be about donations to guys who need money. It should be an agreement: Investors give money and take the risk to lose it, what is always possible. And those who get it, do their best to deliver what they've explained in detail before. You didn't do your part.
You want money before doing the basic work which would give trust and would already give a lot of answers. And because of that you have to face questions. And those questions could be opportunities to line out what this is about. But you chose another "strategy" and it's the opposite of honesty.

You say not directly to me but indirectly about me:

"I see only two questions from Tempus unanswered: (...)"



One post before you started with this:

(...)  you claimed NONE of your previous questions were answered, and that's grossly incorrect and provocational statement. It makes you look like a troll, better ignored (...)


What you did was this:

1. Claiming I did something what I never did  
2. ...to say that would be "grossly incorrect and provocational"  
3. ...to justify the implication I would be a "troll"
4. ...to have reason to say "better ignored"


And in my world that is "grossly incorrect and provocational". And because I said:

(...) I would appreciate it if you show proof (just quote where I said that), especially if you try to mix that up with words like "troll" to justify what you say with "better ignored".


...you see reason not to address this request in the fact that it's not a question with a question mark.


And all the other stuff in my post is totally on topic. It's critical, yes. But again: You could use exactly that as opportunity to explain your project. You wouldn't have to do that as favor for me. You could use my posts to show your professionalism and I'm sure: Potentially Investors and also those who already did invest in your ICO would be interested.

But: Aaah, damn! I forgot to word it in questions with question marks!

And you know what you do. That's why it needs an additional reason:

"Most of Tempus's long posts consist of something else, so it would be useful to lay out the questions in clear manner. We're quite busy though (...) "

You believe to see "something else" in my "long posts". As if it's a weakness to point things out and a strength to be superficial and ignorant. And I made the mistake not to lay out questions in a "clear manner", plus: you are busy.

It's always the same pattern. And man, you are busy? You should have done some work you did not until now. Nothing I see is in any kind professional or thoughtful. It's all rushed out. That's in best case the reason why you feel uncertain which is the reason to blame that on others. In worst-case you have to hide even more which could be anything. I won't list my considerations because that would be too speculative. But of course, before I would give my money and take the risk I consider all kinds of possibilities. I mean, we don't know each other right?


And you did that, blame it on others, even with your own partner!

Priority is: You are fine. Others have a lack of knowledge and you need to give an order the he gets back on his desk or in my case:  

"grossly incorrect and provocational", "troll", "works for Factom", "better to be ignored", "it's about something else"


What do you believe how I would react if I would take that personal? For me it's just revealing. It's part of the lack of professionalism that is obvious. And the best idea is nothing if the team behind wouldn't be able to deliver or if the team behind acts dishonest. And you show both. Not saying that I believe you plan a scam. But I believe that the team behind this project has a clear priority to make money first and there is a lot of risk that there will be a lot of justifications later to not deliver. Or if, that it will also show this pattern: Rushed out, not thoughtful, not accurate, lazy, without strategy, and so on. Maybe that will change, I can't know that. I can't even know if it's just about you or if you are just the public face for others behind the curtain. It's speculative but I say it as a little sorry in the case that you have to take something that's not just yours.


**************
Use this feedback to think about it. Money won't be a compensation for the pressure you will earn if you go on with that. Disappointed Investors are much worse than I am here. And it will be a lot of pressure in any case, because all ambitious projects involve a lot pressure even for the best teams around. Take a look at Ethereum and their security-problems and the DAO-mess, or the critiques Factom gets for a delay, or in the past because of Trolls who told lies about the Honduras-negotioations and so on. It's never easy. And we speak about really professional and big and skilled teams.

And just by the way: Factom made their ICO over a year ago. But to give trust to their Investors that they are not for the money before they deliver, they have three Milestones to meet before they get the 100% of the money. M1 is done. M2 will be hopefully soon. They got just 1/3 of the ICO-money until now. What I want to say with that:

They did everything possible to show that their focus is on delivering the project, which was detailed out and audited long before the ICO - to give trust to their Investors.

And before you repeat I would work for Factom to implicate it's about "something else": Use logic. Factom and this project are in no competition but totally different. It wouldn't make any sense for Factom to attack it and I'm in no relation to them - just as a simple Investor who not even bought into their ICO (wasn't aware of it). I only mention Factom because I see them as best example I know of for real professionalism. And I did the same with Factom what I did here. And I've seen how they reacted on critiques and on trolls and their lies. I never saw any signs for dishonesty but natural confidence.  


And that is what hoped to find here as well, because I really like the idea of a decentralized exchange, but... yes.

The biggest parts of what was described above is working technology.
To put my money where my mouth is please see for yourself.

These are some important parts of the replication mechanism.
Sources come from a commercial project we did for which we had to implement this feature to power their trader front-end.
The basis for this project was still standard FIMK/NXT which is why there are references to those specific chains.

Same code but with some small adjustments will power HEAT.

MySQLReplicator.java
OrderMatcher.java

Total replicator package consists of some 30+ bigger and smaller source files.

As can be seen there also is mention of a thing called bundles which is a mechanism where a developer can write a custom plugin which is added to the replication layer and which allows him/her to use HEAT blockchain as his CRUD/transaction backup yet still have a powerful MySQL model with everything that comes with it.

We have used the bundle feature to implement a user management system on top of the blockchain.



Edit: Found this note I kinda forgot about in our client framework - it's kind of technical so be warned - will talk more about the bundle technique when there is time or any questions pop-up.

Hi,

Thank you for the constructive question, I'll try and answer as clear as I can.

First this one.

instant tx confirmations through websockets and replication layer

After looking at both posts you link to you clearly are referring to a different kind of instant confirmation, I see the confusion.
What we are referring to is the confirmation the user (or basically all users in the world) get the second/milliseconds anyone places an order, anywhere on the network.
They'll instantly see their balance change, other orders will be eaten, charts will be updated, generated trades can be displayed.

The data we use to build our real-time view of the state of all orders is made up of both all transactions in all the blocks plus all the transactions in the unconfirmed pool, in real-time.
This data is subject to change, albeit very very unlikely, it can change since there can be blockchain reorganizations, transactions can timeout etc all this was taken into account and when such happens all orders, trades etc will instantly reflect this new reality.

But this doesn't mean you can't pretty much predict what the state of the blockchain will be when the next block is forged.
The mechanism is very much like when you send BTC and you watch your balance on blockchain.info or you pay for your pizza online and get an instant confirmation of your transaction in the payment app of your favorite pizza website.
You click send from blockchain.info and almost instantly the website says thank you for your payment, same principle.

But ours is not just about payments, we match all order books and even generate trades and chart data which all becomes available from the MySQL DB which in turn powers the trader site, the backend API so bots/developers can listen in and the websocket connections to sites/mobile apps etc.

The thing we have been struggling with is how to do as accurate a prediction of future blockchain state as possible, already NXT comes with transaction-index tracking this can ensure the order of transaction execution (since this is the important part) to a high degree.

I'm very skeptical if its even possible to find a fully cryptographic mechanism to enforce network wide transaction ordering consensus (referring to the links you posted).
But I'm just a simple developer, so what do i know, some brilliant mind - those of the levels that came up with POS or POW in the first place - might invent such in the future.
But now it doesn't exist.

However looking at all the tools available in our crypto arsenal (basically all tricks from all currencies all combined) and using some common sense, there are many more less 'elegant' solutions but solutions that just work.

One thing we came up with, and this is a dead simple one, is just have each order signed by one single account.
This is something you could automate, and make provably fair (with a hash chain for instance), that one account can then co-sign each order and by co-signing it (using the full power of his private key) giving it an ordering that is guaranteed to stay the same right from its first broadcast to network straight until the transaction lands in the block.

If we did that the chance of false instant confirmations drops again to a much lower level.
And with this mechanism you can even fall-back to how we now have transaction-indexes in case such an optional higher-level dpos'kinda proof is missing.

I can imagine if a commercial party uses HEAT as its in-house private chain, it would be perfectly happy with just one single powerful server on its network which is dedicated for this job.
If you want to do this in a decentralized manner you can adopt a DPOS type of structure where randomly another delegate is appointed as the order co-signer.


Same way NXT protocol does.
We are not touching any of the fundamental POS rules, those rules have been constructed through a process where very smart people all looked at it and discussed it over many years now and made to the thing it is now.
I'd be a fool to think I know better than all those smart people.
But after working closely with NXT source code since it's conception basically I do now understand how all those rules are applied into the basic architecture we started from.


100% preventing front-running in a fully decentralized consensus network is as its now impossible.
Without introducing the two step process of having one (optionally rule bound but random) node that does the co-signing and which works as the single gate all orders must pass through.

I believe that by making that ordering optional and having a fallback to standard transaction -index we can safely introduce a ordering at the block level where if an evil forger starts to re-order his transactions that the rest of the network simply will not accept that block.

I see only two questions from Tempus unanswered:

The HEAT blockchain and client are the live functional examples of what the company does. The company can deliver such solutions or variations thereof for customers and JV projects - as we're doing already. And the company can deploy projects and partnerships (like new cryptocurrencies from 3rd parties) on the HEAT blockchan / HEAT client. And we can consult how to use HEAT blockchain, asset trading, HEAT open source, or HEAT client to implement various company projects. Lots of possibilities there, the HEAT blockchain and client are the central hub and heart of it all.

Direct crypto-crypto p2p trading (one with trading software orders levels like Poloniex, not one direct like Shapeshift with static prices from the house) requires not only gateway (that Shapeshift has) but also tokens that are listed on the buy and sell boards (that Shapeshift doesn't have). These tokens are either inhouse functioning through company's own database (like Poloniex), or they're blockchain tokens on some decentralized platform.

HEAT uses blockchain tokens on its own blockchain to form buy and sell orders, which are then matched and the real crypto funds consequently transferred to counterparty of the trade. Thus trading fees are paid in HEAT to the HEAT blockchain. But like I explained this might not be visible for the user. If the company operating the gateway wants to charge the trading fees in BTC or ETH for example, they could do that through their own Distributed Service working at the gateway level. We can do such too, however it's Heat Ledger Ltd's interest to use HEAT tokens as the fees base, so we're not thinking too much how to charge fees in other crypto for using the HEAT chain. Use HEAT trading chain, pay fees in HEAT. If there's a gateway that makes the HEAT fees invisible for the user but still pays blockchain trade fees in HEAT, excellent.

If there are any more pending questions from yesterday or earlier about the HEAT technology or financial structuring that I or Dennis haven't addressed, kindly state them and I'll be happy to answer. Most of Tempus's long posts consist of something else, so it would be useful to lay out the questions in clear manner. We're quite busy though, so I may have missed valid questions.

Nothing else, except for ensuring that later on during HEAT distribution phase you have access to your particular FIMK account you sent it from.

Yeah the FIMK buy side is very thin, partially because of the lack of standard exchanges.
However if you wish to reserve HEAT with FIMK, just buy FIMK and reserve your stake. A lot of FIMK available there.

There's also https://lompsa.com/#/assets/fim/2339799191405258101/trade

The share rebate is handled through a sequence of phases:

1. Shortly after HEAT distribution, opted in HEAT token holders receive stock options for HEAT Ledger Ltd shares. Real options, registered at the Finnish government authorities. Each option entitles its holder to buy Heat Ledger Ltd shares at 50% (minimum, could be more, not yet locked) rebate from the IPO. How many HEAT are needed to receive one option isn't decided yet, it depends on the total funding received on ICO and the target for funding round 2.

2. The options are traded on the decentralized HEAT exchange

3. There'll be a number of company shares and share price at certain level (that can't be adjusted after then, as it's announced, approved and goes through regulations). As Kazadar well explained, shares will have fixed price and every option holder can purchase shares at 50% of the fixed price. So if share price is 20 EUR, you only pay 10 EUR for each share up to how many options you own.

@Tempus

Asking these kind of technically critical questions is what if have been missing on waves ico back in the days. NobOdy is claiming HEAT a scam, but saying this on Newbie status hasn't much weight for sure. But Tempus I'm with you, nevertheless I put already few bits in @ stage 1 and stage 2. Properly will fuel up some more, making promotion on several channels, depends on devs reaction and honesty answering your farseeing questions.

Devs vision reminds me of LSK. Huge huge work and time is already implemented in the project, damn much to do on all sites, but having these hardcore vision and strong willingness is what makes project a success.

Risk reward ration 1/5 for what I see at the moment. Indeed Dev can increase confidence/support a lot by making the right decisions.

Thanks for that.

How do I buy FIMK? Is it only through these markets? http://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/fimkrypto/#tab-markets

Doesnt look very liquid.

yeahh... post some pr after every critical post..  
the people will know about your scam... earlier or later.

PLS lovely investors and HEAT followers READ the whole thread and dont get caught by the methods of that guys!

Dont forget, if you wish to trade HEAT, it is possible already now on OpenLedger

Following markets have been created, it is possible however to create your own as well:

https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.HEAT_FIMK

https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.HEAT_BTS

https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.HEAT_OPEN.BTC

https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.HEAT_OPEN.ETH

https://bitshares.openledger.info/#/market/OPEN.HEAT_OPEN.DGD

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In order to trade on OpenLedger, all you need is to go to CCEDK to follow the ICO subscribe procedure https://www.ccedk.com/

or simply send BTC or ETH to the OpenLedger account: ico.openledger, write in memo: HEAT

that's it and I will send you the equivalent in OPEN.HEAT based on the level at the time of funds sent

HEAT has now entered into level 2 of their ICO.

More than 55 BTC has been funded via OpenLedger. It means more or less 550 000 HEAT available for immediate trading on the various markets availabel on OpenLedger. If you wish to participate actively in trading untill October, OpenLedger is where you need to go. Subscribe now on https://www.ccedk.com/subscribe/introduction

Here are our video to help you subscribe and trade!

Check out our new tutorial video
on how to participate in an ICO on OpenLedger.


Click the image to watch the video!

Here's how you can trade an ICO token before anyone else...



Click the image to watch the video!

Also find the details! http://heatledger.com/ico/

this is a shame. especially for the FIMK community.

the programmer got his code from different projects and packed it on top of FIMK (aka NXT CLONE), he is a dreamer without knowing about security.

the buisness guy has a lot of strategies to sell his stories and is waiting for someone to buy his "company", he is a storyteller, who wants to make money fast.

they do not answer critical questions and everyone critical will be a troll.

stay away from this guys! its a scam! (their partners like dgex did the same 2 years ago and scammed all the investors in his company)

this place is about DECENTRALISATION and FUTURE ECONOMICS. NOT any buisnessmodels of centralised companys ... GO AWAY or TO WALLSTREET!

and a special note to you HEAT guys: nxt time dont make financial plans first. invest your time into a strategy that shows your <3 LOVE in this project! stay fair and honest.. but anyway your mother told you already.

I sent FIMK to the ICO address with my FIMK wallet, anything else I should do?

I have technical questions for Dennis.

Re: instant tx confirmations through websockets and replication layer

Websockets and replication are fine technologies for network and data access layers.  But, I don’t understand how this can provide safe instant tx confirmations on the blockchain.  The p2p consensus comes from NXT, which suggests 10 block confirmations.

Early discussions about instant tx from NXT first developers.  I don't think it ever got implemented:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/nxt-instant-transactions-with-guaranteed-confirmation-316104
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/transparent-mining-or-what-makes-nxt-a-2nd-generation-currency-364218

How does the HEAT protocol protect against double-spends while simultaneously providing instant confirmations?


Re: Optimized for speed and instant high frequency trading

Same concerns as above, plus another.  Some decentralized exchanges can be susceptible to order front running by miners/forgers.  If HEAT usage ever approaches the scale of the HFT engine you describe, it could be a very savory target for this type of attack.

Does the HEAT trading engine protect against order front running by forgers?

We dont know how much is needed. We most likely wont know until after the ICO.

They will likely be sold at a fixed price durring the IPO. So if the price is 10 EUR and you pay 5 EUR then its 50% off (share prices are just an example. I have no idea of what they will sell them for).

How much is "enough?"

And how will we know we are buying at a price that is 50%?

Usually I'm careful with words. But if I wasn't, I would appreciate it if you show proof (just quote where I said that), especially if you try to mix that up with words like "troll" to justify what you say with "better ignored". And keep in mind that I started very friendly and with a honest intention for answers, because I hoped to find a project I would see as good Investment. And I was friendly in all of my first posts, even if critical. Now I may seem not to be, but I'm still factual/on topic. Plus: Keep in mind that it's needed to ask to get infos everybody should want to know about - there is no Whitepaper and the ANN is a list of "headlines" without deeper explanations about why and how.


This is what I found what I've said about questions and answers:

Post 142:

"I'm kind of concerned if I ask 3 questions and the two most important ones are not answered."
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15557115

Post 158:

And there are still missing answers/infos to my previous questions:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15556402

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15558325
 

Post 210:

"All questions I had I needed to ask and there was nearly no answer that was convincing for me personally. No problem if others have another opinion."

(...)

"There are two long posts without any answer!

About regulatory issues: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15561379
About the token and the economical design: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15561785"



Post 216:

"And if I ask 3 questions and 2 are important but just the one that is not that important is answered while the other ones are ignored - what would you think?"
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15563436





My concerns about PoS are basically two points, but I know that some guys who are much more experts than I will ever be, pointed out a lot of more flaws. But I will list my two main-concerns, especially when a coin starts with an ICO:

1. Over time there is no way to avoid a very unequal distribution. The big stakes are like a money-magnet, so it's a rich becomes richer - system right from the start, and that may even be more the case if the start is an ICO.

2. Costs for an attack are just one time costs - That's different to PoW.


And while the incentives to do an attack on a cryptocurrency may be not very high that could be different when it's about an exchange.

And this may be interesting for experts, which I'm not:

Excellent paper on why Proof of Stake is fundamentally flawed, linked to by Gavin Andresen in his AMA.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2jwbvr/excellent_paper_on_why_proof_of_stake_is/


Why I point on that subject is because I'm really surprised to see an ambitious project starting with PoS when there are so much publications of flaws - or they are not correct.



How does the token enables the technology? I understand that it's a fee-payment system. But I don't understand why it needs a token for it. Wouldn't it be possible to take just the fees of the coins that will be traded on Heat? And the fees could be paid out to those who secure the network and it would be a more like DpOS-System without a high inflation token in combination with PoS which will have impact on the economy, in a worst-case-scenario even on security.  

And since you want to run some more investment-rounds - If you wouldn't do this ICO but develop something you already could show, and of course, write a Whitepaper before, you could show "proof of concept" etc. It could be really an interesting project while it now looks more as if it needs a token to do an ICO even before you write a Whitepaper. And just by the way: That's the main-point why it needs questions to come to conclusions that are based on informations.  




See, I can't know why you chose such a design but just the 40% in the first year would really be enough for me to step back, even if everything else would look good in my opinion. 2 reasons:

1) ICO's are often bought up from groups who are behind the ICO. That's not meant as accusation but generally it's something an Investor can't be sure about and we've seen that several times. And to see a very high inflation rate in the first year would be an indicator for me to think about exactly that. That it could be intentionally.

2) And to say it's an incentive for initial adoption could be a wrong strategy. Because: Even if I wouldn't think about the possibility I spoke about above: What you see as incentive to buy also means high inflation! And that means sell-pressure.

Conclusion:

If I combine those two concerns out of Investor-perspective who has just the informations you provide, I would wait, even if I would believe in the project in general. I would expect to get it cheaper some time after launch on the exchange. That happens to a lot of ICO's (by the way: Also Factom was cheaper after launch for some time and I also did not buy into the ICO). And we've seen that several times just the last couple of weeks.



Okay, I understand the technical solution. What I still have doubts about is that it will be possible to get a license for a decentralized exchange - and yes, I understand that it's about the partner-company. But the EU even wants to regulate Wallet-providers what shows the tendency.

But if it should be possible I expect that you need to do all the "know-your-customer-stuff" and that contradicts in some ways what it's about to do things in a decentralized fashion. To say it with other words: I don't see much reason to not use a centralized exchange like Poloniex instead, because it's possible to use it nearly as if it would be decentralized. I buy and withdraw what I bought and I deposit to sell. And it's not EU-law.

Later this year the company behinde HEAT will sell some shares in the company. If you buy enough HEAT tokens durring the ICO, you will be able to buy X amount of shares at half price.

I do not understand the 50% rebate thing. Its is confusing. I know others are confused about it as well. Can you please explain in detail? Thank you.

Jon