Topic: [ANN] profit switching auto-exchanging pool - www.middlecoin.com - page 475. (Read 829908 times)

I wanted to bring up the gambler's fallacy several pages ago, but I didn't have an account and so had to wait a while.

It seems to me there is a fundamental misunderstanding of how this whole hashing thing works. It is based on the erroneous belief that during each block you are making "progress" towards a share; progress which is discarded if a new block shows up before you actually find a share. This would be as though you were trying to fill up buckets, but someone kept taking the buckets away and replacing them with empty ones before you could ever fill one entirely. This is wrong. There is no progress.

The reason it's called the gambler's fallacy is this: Imagine a man at a casino. He's been at the same slot machine for hours without getting back a dime. Due to the amount of time and money he's already put in, he's convinced it has to pay off sooner or later and that quitting beforehand would mean forsaking his progress. If for some reason the casino had a weird policy wherein every five minutes he had to move to a new machine, he might be upset by this and claim that every time he moves to a new machine he loses all his "progress" on the previous one. In reality, as long as the different machines are mechanically identical, there is physically nothing different from pulling the crank on one or the other. A slot machine has no memory and has no way of "knowing" that you've tried 500 times and deserve a break.

As for mining, say blocks come by every 10 seconds and you average one share every 12 seconds. Based on a misunderstanding of averages as being discrete times at which a share will be found, one might conclude that he would never get a share as his "progress" would be "reset" 2 seconds shy of finding a share each time. In reality, he has the exact same chance of finding a share every single second, it just averages out to once every twelve. However, it wouldn't be too uncommon to find one in only 8 seconds, or have to wait 16. In fact, while very unlikely, it would be possibly for a CPU miner to solo-mine Bitcoin and find a block within seconds, while a guy with a top of the line ASIC doesn't find anything in a month.

In closing,consider the following: If you throw a die once, what are the odds you roll a six? One in six, right? Yes. How about if you throw it twice? 2/6? Nope. "What!?" you might say "But two rolls should clearly give me twice the chances as one, you're obviously an idiot." Yet by that logic, six throws would give you 6/6, a 100% chance of success, and life is never that certain. The answer is that two rolls net you an 11/36 chance. Why? The answer is actually quite simple: there are a total of 36 equally probable combinations of two rolls, 11 of which include at least one six ([1,6] [2,6] [3,6] [4,6] [5,6] [6,6] [6,1] [6,2] [6,3] [6,4] and [6,5]) And six rolls? Surely in six rolls you should get a six once right? In fact you only have a 66.5% chance. Still more often than not, but not exactly something to bet your life on.

Not really. The closest thing right now is this:

http://middlecoin.com/json

It has the same info as the web page.

But that format is going to change soon, so I wouldn't bother.

About the difficulty, I know what's right, and what's not. It's fine if people discuss it, because that will help bring them closer to the truth.

+1

Thank you h2odysee for providing this service.

I'd like to ask whether there is a pool API for statistics? And please don't let the difficulty-arguers get to you.

I doubt the 'span' goes up with difficulty and ping = 1 ms between both Client Server <> Server <> Coin Network. Cannot prove it however.

Since the above usually ain't true, I agree on the 'span' going up for short block generation time, for the 'restarts' you mention. Time lost in restarts due to the miner not being up to date with the work to be done, is why a high block rate hurts performance.

EDIT: communication chain

Ok, thats where discussion starts
I'm not that good in English, sorry for that.


No, blocks would not been found faster with a lower pool difficulty. BUT the work your hardware did to generate a valid share (=diff 512) would not been lost at all, if you have like ~1share per minute@diff=512 and the blocks are found every ~10seconds. With a lower diff the pool would 'see' that you are working on that block. With higher diff you dont submit anything at all = lower payout.

That is true, a valid share with diff=512 is also a valid share with diff=1.
If you turn that around a valid share with diff=1 is not automatically a valid share with diff=512.

And thats the point where we lose our mining-effectivity. Lower pool-diff = more valid shares for the miner, no matter if he hits a block or not.


On high difficulty coins (FE Litecoin) it is okay to use higher diff, because the blocks arent found every seconds and you dont lose THAT amount of work.

Just have an eye on that 2 values I circled:


Left circle = The hashrate your hardware is generating.
Right circle = The hashrate which is submitted to the pool and credited.

This span goes way higher WHEN: Block-target time goes down or Pool-difficulty goes up.

My WU on that Pool was like ~1500, which means I throw away ~600kh+ for nothing.

The value 'U:' shows you the total submitted shares per minute @ actual diff. My miner is running @290 in that screenshot with 7.1valid shares per minute.
Higher diff would push 'U:' down, faster blocks would make your workers to restart over and over again.

Can you get my point?

Actually, sQueeZey, I read it wrong.  You made some good valid points after I deciphered your text.  Although you have not quite mastered the art of the English language, you did help educate me on a few things regarding pooled mining so thank you for that!

When I think of pooled mining, I think of a pool difficulty.  When you compared that to solo mining BTC, I thought of a coin's  difficulty (IE the thing you get when you open the client and type "getmininginfo" or whatever).  

However, this still doesn't explain why the difficulty is "too high" at 512.   Are you saying that blocks would be found faster if the pool op lowered the difficulty?  Because if you are saying that then you are definitely incorrect.   Any submitted share could be a block.  That is correct.  However lowering the difficulty would only mean accepting more shares that aren't going to get the block reward.  If the nonce isn't accepted as a valid share at Diff=512 it might be a valid share at Diff=1, but it will still not get the block.   That is my understanding, but please correct me if I am wrong.

Damnsammit isn't trolling, but exhausted from battling nonsense in this thread. Go to your wife D for what you had in mind ;-)

Why is diff 32 fine with blocktarget ~ 15 sec? How do you relate these two.

And then eaten!

Why should I quote him? He is clearly searching for colours as a blind person.

Yes, true. Higher diff = better Network performance Client < > Pool.
Because not every 'trash' = lower diff-share than from pool expected is submitted to the pool.

A decent mid is the way to go. Diff = 1 is not possible on big pools. Diff = 32 should be fine when working
on low-diff coins with ~15sec blocktarget time.

Cheers

sQueeZer, can you give Damnsammit also a quote on independent hashes, difficulty and the 'lost work' paradigm vs. the 'work on the wrong inputs en deliver outputs late at their destination'?

Lowering server load by high diff improves communication speed/bandwidth and thus benefits all miners.

Bring some arguments instead of quoting... U make yourself look like an uber-troll buddy.

Quoted so you can't change this crap later lol

Dude, u didnt understand how Pools work.

A pool is sth like a 'sub-network' for the total Network.
There is no  seperate 'Coin-Difficulty', there is a pool difficulty.
The difficulty of hitting a block is the standard network-diff.

No matter if u solomine or mine in a pool.

Now the pool-operator can set an own Pool-Difficulty in order to lower his Traffic/Bandwith/Load,
so HE has not to check if every submitted share is valid or not.
Basically diff=1 is the way to go because every share could be a valid block.

That causes alot of Pool-Load so the pool-ops go higher diff to sort out the trash on clientside.

Read some basics about that and come back to discuss.

[edit]
There is a kind of share, even when solomining. Every non-valid hash your Hardware produces is a 'share'.
It is just not submitted anywhere because ur mining-client knows what the target-difficulty is and that it is invalid.

That's coin difficulty, not pool difficulty.

I don't think anyone has said coin difficulty doesn't matter...

Edit:  nevermind, you are clearly trolling since there is no such thing as a share in solo mining

Why dont u guys start Solo-Mining BTC @ 50m Share-Diff when Difficulty doesnt matter?

Maybe because it takes ages to hit a 50m Diff Share?


U guys are clueless what u are taklin about, for real.

The website is now updating again. I had it turned off for something, and forgot to turn it on.

The website has not been updated for some time.

WDC is most profitable at the moment. We are still mining LTC.

Can someone else please take over? This is exhausting.

Well we can just agree to disagree.

What you are describing is illogical as it doesn't matter either way.

Would you rather have a dollar per share or four quarters?  lol

Cut the difficulty in half so we can all have twice as many shares!  More profitssss.... wait