[ANN] SilkCoin | New Wallet | NOW on MintPal / Cryptsy | FULL POS - page 67.

judgecrypto

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Quote from: bholzer on June 22, 2014, 08:21:28 PM

Either/or could damage a coin, Judge. I've been in the crypto game for over 3 years and personally know a number of wealthy individuals and organized investment groups that would not touch a coin with over a 4% premine. Like I said - fair or not, most seasoned traders will never give it a chance. These guys base everything on data and specifications and they control 90% of the capital in this market.

I see your point and the majority of use cases support premines being abused. My point is that when they deliver on the eco system and wallet innovations the UTILITY of the coin will over ride any of the notions of the premine. If the eco system was out today we would not even be having this discussion. The money would be pouring in by the truckloads.

To me the premine is irrelevant. Initial investors who use the premine as an investment measure are irrelevant to the long term growth of the coin. What will matter is getting the eco system up and running. If they use part of the premine to help with coding the eco system then it is money well spent.

This is not to disparage the investors who think premines are bad. In many cases they are. In most cases they are. Silk coin is not any shit coin. They have delivered so far and will continue to do so. If the investors who view premines are bad choose not to invest then I say respectfully that is your choice. You are missing out on an opportunity but you have to go with your trading rules. Having those investors would prop the price now but it would only be a prop since the ultimate value of the coin is the eco system and not the investors who value a no premine.

Judge Crypto

bholzer

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The Murraycoin Project ▪ Lead Developer

Either/or could damage a coin, Judge. I've been in the crypto game for over 3 years and personally know a number of wealthy individuals and organized investment groups that would not touch a coin with over a 4% premine. Like I said - fair or not, most seasoned traders will never give it a chance. These guys base everything on data and specifications and they control 90% of the capital in this market.

Grifftech2k4

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Quote from: WhiteNotWright on June 22, 2014, 06:31:46 PM

Quote from: Grifftech2k4 on June 22, 2014, 06:02:34 PM

Quote from: WhiteNotWright on June 22, 2014, 02:39:20 PM

Quote from: Grifftech2k4 on June 22, 2014, 12:20:56 PM

Quote from: cryptodevil on June 22, 2014, 12:08:38 PM

Quote from: Quantum12 on June 22, 2014, 10:59:44 AM

you have had your question answered twice...
your post and concerns, although eloquent and not without value have been addressed
why are you so hung up on a single letter of the alphabet?

Because it isn't just a letter of the alphabet. It is a failure by the very team who launched 'Shock and Awe', a marketing strategy, to address something incredibly basic about the initial structure of this project when they decided to use the Blackcoin source code.

It does not represent a letter, it represents a fundamental failure in the quality standards of the project, from the very first days of its existence.

Quote from: Quantum12 on June 22, 2014, 10:59:44 AM

If your not happy with the answer why ask the question?

I am not happy with the answers I am being given but, what is worse, and something that should be of great concern to any other person considering this coin, is not that I am not happy with the answer, but that the official Silkcoin rep isn't happy with the question.

We are being asked to believe they can deliver a bold new 'Ecosystem' for a coin project they evidently handled sloppily at the very start.

I'm not asking for the letter 'B' to be changed, I'm asking for them to appreciate the failings that letter now represents in their coin's wallet address format and to assuage our concerns as to the type of poor workmanship and quality standards that mistake is clearly representative of.

What has changed in their team, their methodology and practice since then?

If their response is to ask me to keep quiet, I'm guessing not a lot has changed. That's what I'm trying to establish, whether the same behaviours that brought us 'Shock and Awe' along with shockingly poor oversight, have been addressed at all.

U mad bro? You obviously are not happy, why not just leave then? You are sounding more and more childish with each post, crying like a little brat who keeps asking Mommy, "WHY?!".

You know I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and even after I sucked up an early comment about you stating I was a troll for the Whitepaper. Seriously get some help. One minute you sound intelligent, the next minute you sound like a narcissistic brat. Don't bother responding, it falls on deaf ears now.

?? I wasn't even replying to you, I was speaking to cryptodevil. Not sure what you are talking about.

I should have let you know before you responded. This was targeted toward him. I obviously have much respect for you sir. Sorry about that!

No problem man, was just cornfused

judgecrypto

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The price of Silk coin will ultimately not be decided on whether people choose to invest in it based on their belief on whether a premine is bad or not.

The long term price of the coin will be determined by UTILITY. Where can the coin be used? What can it do?

Coins that are produced with low amounts and considered RARE are not RARE since there are tons of coins that exist and can do nothing else but exist.

Bitcoin is #1 since it has the most UTILITY. What can you do with Bitcoin? You can spend it in many places. It is the reserve currency of altcoins.
Litecoin is #2 since it has less UTILITY but has been around a long time and you can spend it at less places and is worth less.

A coin can be 50% premined and be worth a lot if it has UTILITY!

So you have to ask yourself. What is Silk coin doing that is creating UTILITY? What is it doing that other coins are not doing?

They are creating an eco system that will have built in marketplace functionality. You will be able to transact directly with Silk coin to other people eventually. Yes people will copy it, but being first to market has advantages. Look at Bitcoin. People copy the shit out of it, but it was the first. Dark coin was the first to focus on anonymity and it is higher than the others trying to implement it even with hard fork issues. As an innovator Silk coin will always be ahead.

People are stuck on the mentality that Premine kills coins. NO... BAD DEVS KILL COINS... Devs that dump premines and abandon their projects kills coins. A well used premine is an ASSET!

Judge Crypto

fusi0n

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Quote from: kalisto on June 22, 2014, 06:54:39 PM

Quote from: bholzer on June 22, 2014, 06:24:26 PM

Quote from: Jacqul on June 22, 2014, 05:11:27 PM

I don't see fundamental difference between 2% and 4.5%.

Really? I am not interested in contributing my opinion regarding SilkCoin in general as there already appears to be some quite vocal individuals on both sides... but I think most seasoned traders, regardless of sector, would consider the difference to be significant. While I disagree that the 4.5% premine alone spells "certain doom" for SilkCoin, as a certain individual claimed previously in this thread, I will say it stacks the deck for the developer (whom was already holding all of the cards). There are significant advantages to being a coin developer on their own. You control the release of information, you control the timeline, you know the progress of things, and you know your level of commitment (or lack thereof) in a way nobody else can. I have nothing against this coin specifically because I've been maintaining my own coin for over 5 months now and I have dealt with an inordinate level of FUD that also forced me to create a moderated thread; it's frustrating and not as rewarding as one would think. My coin had a 0% premine because I felt that a legitimate coin should not have a premine; looking back... I probably should have had a small premine to help compensate me for all of the effort that goes into it. My biggest concern with the 4.5% premine in this case is that, in addition to being quite large, it also wasn't the original specification. Yes - I understand members of the community voted to adjust the PoW period - but not everybody who mined or invested in SilkCoin felt the same way (or even saw/understood the poll). I believe that once a coin is launched, the distribution specifications need to remain the same throughout even if things under the hood continue to evolve. I guess I see no reason why the PoW phase would be cut short - why would that even be proposed? It was already so short that only a small group of people were even involved in the PoW portion - these are all things that are bad for a currency. Also, by changing the specifications of the coin post-launch, the integrity of the coin was compromised. It opened the door for confusion, outrage, and all of the other negative aspects of the situation you guys now find yourselves in. I believe the best thing that could be done for SilkCoin (and quite possibly the only chance there is to reverse the current slide in value) is to destroy a portion of the premine so that the premine remained consistent with the original specifications. I know if I had invested in SilkCoin under the impression that there was a 2% premine and then, by way of democratic process or not, the coin specifications changed and the premine rose to 4.5%, I would be pretty upset because my investment would have been significantly devalued (and possibly even fully at-risk). In the end, it doesn't matter what a handful of people think or if a handful of people don't care about the difference between 2% and 4.5% because most people do care. I have been trading cryptocurrency since 2011 and a significant portion of my net worth is in crypto (probably more than what is prudent, really) - the premine is too big of a chunk for people like me to consider making a play in SilkCoin (even a short-term play). To make matters even worse, the spec changed post-launch. I'm not anti-premine - I think it has its place - but destroying a chunk of the premine to take it down to the original 2% would go a long way in restoring the integrity of this coin and the developer. Perhaps you guys could set up a fundraiser to donate coins to the developer before/after the premine is destroyed?

I know this is a long post but I was asked for my input on SilkCoin and that is all I'm willing to address. I believe that if the premine isn't destroyed to restore the original premine specs (or at least close to it) that this coin will continue to decline and never recover. I know better than anyone how difficult it is to reignite a community once the initial excitement wears off - you need to keep people excited and optimistic and even if you're just here to dump and get out wouldn't you rather do it at a higher price?

I'm not here for a debate - not my thing. That is my 100% honest assessment of the premine. For those of you here that don't understand the significance of a premine, I urge you to do your research before investing in another premined coin. I would urge you to learn more about why it matters and why it increases the risk. I'm not saying all premines are a horrible thing - I just think it needs to be within reason. We're talking about creating currencies here and a currency cannot work if one single person commands too large of a share right out of the gates. Currency isn't a new concept - it's been around as a superior alternative to the barter system as far back as mankind goes - there are basic rules that must be followed. A 4.5% premine turns off 90% of crypto investors and puts it in a lower class along with hundreds of similar coins - it's virtually impossible to get the level of acceptance required to survive long-term no matter how great the developer is.

I agree that 4,5% is a big unintented premine but what your story seems to miss is that half of the premine has already been spend on bountys.

If they would destroy another 2% not much is left for ongoing bountys or development.

Also there has to be a balance regarding what is left of the premine and what is already spend.

Ofcourse we can check the blockchain but it would be better to see a spreadsheet where all bountys went to.

If part of the premine willbe destroyed i suggest generating a valid address where no private key for can be generated, i know this is possible. If i remember correct NVC did the same in the past and the premine can still be checked in the blockchain but nobody can ever move them.

I was initially against the destruction of the premine but you bholzer, bring some good arguments. I will also donate to a dev fund if this goes ahead.

However, if this goes ahead I guarantee you that FUDders will use it as some sort of dev acknowledgement that the premine was too high. You can never please everyone.

bholzer

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The Murraycoin Project ▪ Lead Developer

Quote from: bluepixie on June 22, 2014, 07:41:14 PM

Quote from: bholzer on June 22, 2014, 07:35:04 PM

Quote from: anarchyx on June 22, 2014, 07:24:15 PM

Really it's not worth worrying about. The fact is they weren't being deceptive because at launch premine really was the 2%. It only looks like 4% after the decrease in coins. Doing that not only doubled their premine, but everyone else in this forum that mined before the change as well!

So why complain? we all mined 2x the % that we thought...it's all relative. Dev is doing a kick ass job and deserves even more than that. Just my 2 cents though.

Right - I'm sure it was great for the people that got in early. That also means it was bad for distribution. I'm just telling you why most serious traders, such as myself, will never hold SilkCoin in their portfolio as long as there was over a 4% premine. This statistic, while of no concern to you (or others like you) from a fundamental standpoint, will always negatively impact the value. My point is: it matters even if you don't care. Traders with deep pockets will never look past that premine no matter what. Fair or not, I can't say - I'm just telling you how it is. This doesn't mean the coin has no future; it simply lowers the ceiling on potential value (potentially so far it squashes everybody inside).

Would you invest if the premine was destroyed and a developer fund set up?

I would certainly consider it. All things being equal, I have to say this developer has already produced more than most. Also, this developer has clearly invested some time into things. There is zero evidence that he does not intend to see things through. The 4.5% premine is the only major issue I could never move past. 2% is the upper limit by my standards but I do believe it's fair for the developer to receive some level of compensation for their effort. Destroying a portion of the premine would also restore the premine to its original specifications - something I feel is extremely important as changing distribution post-launch compromises the integrity of a currency beyond what meets the eye. As I said previously, if I could do it all over again I would have likely opted to go with a small premine for my own coin instead of 0%. If you support this dev, support them with a fundraiser and eliminate the premine - it would help prevent the slide in value and in the end everybody would likely end up profiting more (including the dev). If the dev wants more coins and has some great plans they intend to follow through on, they would certainly have the option to buy as many as they like. A dev that believes in their coin and its future should be buying, correct? I know I own a lot of my own coin...

fusi0n

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WhiteNotWright

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Fibre Knight

In reference to some statements floating around, we (us investor types - non technical) understand the premine and we understand risk verse reward and cautious investments. Deep pockets take calculated risks and mitigate loses by doing extensive analysis and assessment on all futures. A man doesn't jump into a lake head first without looking below for rocks and ensure the climate is correct. If they find the coin has legs (regardless of what we think) the money will come swiftly and if quality product and service will sustain will continue to prop and support culture. Otherwise, they will just move on to something else that has a specific market niche. This coin offers that promise and should it deliver you won't be questioning a 4.5% premine. That will be the last thing on your mind.

stormia

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I guess these coins are also "low class" and will never make it because they have huge premines/IPOs:

http://maidsafe.net/
http://www.swarmcorp.com/
http://www.siacoin.com/
http://www.crypti.me/

WhiteNotWright

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Fibre Knight

Quote from: Intrepid101 on June 22, 2014, 07:36:45 PM

the premine IS an issue but it doesn't have to be. 25k sc from me if remainder is destroyed. we could raise a few hundred k within 24hrs with more donations. then multipool 1% going to dev fund for long term support. even donation button in wallet if eco system a success

I think this issue is squashed. The community has agreed to allow the existing premine without modification. However, I am not an official part of that team, just repeating what has been stated. I did think the original was 2%, then was modified, but thought modification to 4%, not 4.5% (not sure where I got 4%).

bluepixie

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Quote from: bholzer on June 22, 2014, 07:35:04 PM

Quote from: anarchyx on June 22, 2014, 07:24:15 PM

Really it's not worth worrying about. The fact is they weren't being deceptive because at launch premine really was the 2%. It only looks like 4% after the decrease in coins. Doing that not only doubled their premine, but everyone else in this forum that mined before the change as well!

So why complain? we all mined 2x the % that we thought...it's all relative. Dev is doing a kick ass job and deserves even more than that. Just my 2 cents though.

Right - I'm sure it was great for the people that got in early. That also means it was bad for distribution. I'm just telling you why most serious traders, such as myself, will never hold SilkCoin in their portfolio as long as there was over a 4% premine. This statistic, while of no concern to you (or others like you) from a fundamental standpoint, will always negatively impact the value. My point is: it matters even if you don't care. Traders with deep pockets will never look past that premine no matter what. Fair or not, I can't say - I'm just telling you how it is. This doesn't mean the coin has no future; it simply lowers the ceiling on potential value (potentially so far it squashes everybody inside).

Would you invest if the premine was destroyed and a developer fund set up?

yeyangzuo

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Activity: 62

Merit: 10

Quote from: cointrader2014 on June 22, 2014, 05:17:11 PM

Also, keep in mind that some members of the dev team don't speak English as their first language....

this has distinguishing feature,I am ery interested in, nice future for sure.

Intrepid101

newbie

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the premine IS an issue but it doesn't have to be. 25k sc from me if remainder is destroyed. we could raise a few hundred k within 24hrs with more donations. then multipool 1% going to dev fund for long term support. even donation button in wallet if eco system a success

bholzer

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 510

The Murraycoin Project ▪ Lead Developer

Quote from: anarchyx on June 22, 2014, 07:24:15 PM

Really it's not worth worrying about. The fact is they weren't being deceptive because at launch premine really was the 2%. It only looks like 4% after the decrease in coins. Doing that not only doubled their premine, but everyone else in this forum that mined before the change as well!

So why complain? we all mined 2x the % that we thought...it's all relative. Dev is doing a kick ass job and deserves even more than that. Just my 2 cents though.

Right - I'm sure it was great for the people that got in early. That also means it was bad for distribution. I'm just telling you why most serious traders, such as myself, will never hold SilkCoin in their portfolio as long as there was over a 4% premine. This statistic, while of no concern to you (or others like you) from a fundamental standpoint, will always negatively impact the value. My point is: it matters even if you don't care. Traders with deep pockets will never look past that premine no matter what. Fair or not, I can't say - I'm just telling you how it is. This doesn't mean the coin has no future; it simply lowers the ceiling on potential value (potentially so far it squashes everybody inside).

bluepixie

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Quote from: bholzer on June 22, 2014, 07:15:48 PM

Quote from: kalisto on June 22, 2014, 06:54:39 PM

I agree that 4,5% is a big unintented premine but what your story seems to miss is that half of the premine has already been spend on bountys.

I find this extremely hard to believe. However, even if that is the case, that isn't a very prudent way to distribute 2% of a currency's total supply. Combined with the remainder of the premine and the distribution system in general there are fundamental flaws here that will limit the SilkCoin ceiling considerably. Even if the eco-system is actually produced, you have to remember it could easily be reproduced by a coin with superior distribution and design. Personally, I see too many flaws in any coin that becomes PoS so quickly after a brief PoW window due to the extremely lopsided distribution. That being said, we have seen Blackcoin overcome this seemingly negative aspect despite not truly achieving long-term success yet by most standards. I believe the issue here is that it is primarily the same group of people interested in SilkCoin; the smart play would still be destroying a portion of the premine and focusing more time and energy on getting the word out elsewhere vs continuing to primarily contribute to this thread on a single forum full of the very people already interested in the coin. With the reduced premine, less marketing effort can be spent on defending this negative aspect of the coin and the confusion surrounding it (and the PoW adjustments) - it will only continue to create problems for you. I believe I have sufficiently covered what I wanted to cover; not looking to rain on the parade or create additional friction here - I was asked to look into SilkCoin and post my assessment and I believe I have sufficiently covered what needed to be covered. I've been at this a long time, I've been through ups/downs, created and managed my own coin, and been faced with almost every possible situation. My general trading experience goes back over a decade. I strongly believe something needs to be done to slow the slide and even more needs to be done to reverse it. If you continue down this same path, SilkCoin will fail; that would be unfortunate because the last thing we need are more failed altcoins.

Maybe there could be a 1% destruction of the premine and then a development fund set in place. A Donation address that people can give to, to help promote Silk coin. Maybe give 3 diffrent promotion options for people to donate too. Lets say you want 2FA donate silk to this add... or chance to winning a mining RIG by trading SILK (oculus promotion) donate to this add... OR facebook giveaway... whatever

komodovpn

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Once the real features start rolling in over the next 2-3 weeks the price will start going back up again. I don't think SC will drop much more than what it's at now, it is already quite undervalued.

bholzer

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Activity: 490

Merit: 510

The Murraycoin Project ▪ Lead Developer

Also wanted to add that I'm not suggesting you drop everything and buy my coin because it's perfect - I'm trying to turn the ship around on Murraycoin as well and I face a major uphill battle myself. My business model relied too heavily on third parties that didn't come through and now I'm paying the price; 5 months after launch, I'm in a rebuilding phase trying to get back on the map. It is my first and only coin and I have learned from experience; while I will often give advance on what not to invest in I never give advice on what to invest in. I've had a lot of fun making it and meeting the members of my community but I would never suggest anybody put their life savings into Murraycoin Cheesy

Just didn't want anybody to get the wrong idea. Take care guys - that SilkCoin Qt wallet is slick and a great cornerstone of SilkCoin without a doubt. I wish you all the best (you'll get this figured out).

anarchyx

hero member

Activity: 480

Merit: 500

Really it's not worth worrying about. The fact is they weren't being deceptive because at launch premine really was the 2%. It only looks like 4% after the decrease in coins. Doing that not only doubled their premine, but everyone else in this forum that mined before the change as well!

So why complain? we all mined 2x the % that we thought...it's all relative. Dev is doing a kick ass job and deserves even more than that. Just my 2 cents though.

twistelaar

legendary

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Whitepaper released, price is down. Whats the deal guys?

bholzer

hero member

Activity: 490

Merit: 510

The Murraycoin Project ▪ Lead Developer

Quote from: kalisto on June 22, 2014, 06:54:39 PM

I agree that 4,5% is a big unintented premine but what your story seems to miss is that half of the premine has already been spend on bountys.

I find this extremely hard to believe. However, even if that is the case, that isn't a very prudent way to distribute 2% of a currency's total supply. Combined with the remainder of the premine and the distribution system in general there are fundamental flaws here that will limit the SilkCoin ceiling considerably. Even if the eco-system is actually produced, you have to remember it could easily be reproduced by a coin with superior distribution and design. Personally, I see too many flaws in any coin that becomes PoS so quickly after a brief PoW window due to the extremely lopsided distribution. That being said, we have seen Blackcoin overcome this seemingly negative aspect despite not truly achieving long-term success yet by most standards. I believe the issue here is that it is primarily the same group of people interested in SilkCoin; the smart play would still be destroying a portion of the premine and focusing more time and energy on getting the word out elsewhere vs continuing to primarily contribute to this thread on a single forum full of the very people already interested in the coin. With the reduced premine, less marketing effort can be spent on defending this negative aspect of the coin and the confusion surrounding it (and the PoW adjustments) - it will only continue to create problems for you. I believe I have sufficiently covered what I wanted to cover; not looking to rain on the parade or create additional friction here - I was asked to look into SilkCoin and post my assessment and I believe I have sufficiently covered what needed to be covered. I've been at this a long time, I've been through ups/downs, created and managed my own coin, and been faced with almost every possible situation. My general trading experience goes back over a decade. I strongly believe something needs to be done to slow the slide and even more needs to be done to reverse it. If you continue down this same path, SilkCoin will fail; that would be unfortunate because the last thing we need are more failed altcoins.

Topic: [ANN] SilkCoin | New Wallet | NOW on MintPal / Cryptsy | FULL POS - page 67. (Read 332112 times)