[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 334.

tspacepilot

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Quote from: SebastianJu on July 01, 2015, 07:33:02 AM

Quote from: BayAreaCoins on June 29, 2015, 05:04:17 PM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.

I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

If you invest at Just-dice you will make more money, but you will be contributing to CLAM being centralized.

I have read what was written above your post but i still dont get it. Why do you earn more staking on just-dice? As far as i know clams are spread proportionally to the amount of clams on an address. So if you have many you will get stakes more often.

On JD- you have a -10% fee. And some plus because of gamblers money whose stakes are added to investors.

But besides that it sounds to me like its only like poolmining. Stakes happen more often. There is no difficulty that would make you want to get staked faster too.

So at the end it should average out if you stake on jd or in your own wallet.

Then why do you earn more on jd?

Of course I'm interested in hearing the response from others, but one reason which should contribute would be that at JD, they're paying the power bill. That seems a bit relevant. I think your question is well put though, if you have 1 clam, or 1000 clams, you should make the same amount per-clam. So, if JD distributes the stakes fairly minus the fees then you'd expect to make less on JD in the long run. However, I can see that in the short run you'd get many more small portions faster on JD, rather than having to wait a long time for your 1 clam to stake, say.

SebastianJu

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on June 29, 2015, 05:04:17 PM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.

I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

If you invest at Just-dice you will make more money, but you will be contributing to CLAM being centralized.

I have read what was written above your post but i still dont get it. Why do you earn more staking on just-dice? As far as i know clams are spread proportionally to the amount of clams on an address. So if you have many you will get stakes more often.

On JD- you have a -10% fee. And some plus because of gamblers money whose stakes are added to investors.

But besides that it sounds to me like its only like poolmining. Stakes happen more often. There is no difficulty that would make you want to get staked faster too.

So at the end it should average out if you stake on jd or in your own wallet.

Then why do you earn more on jd?

bizz

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Quote from: SuperClam on July 01, 2015, 06:20:22 AM

Quote from: bizz on July 01, 2015, 05:31:50 AM

With other pos coins weight goes up over time. But with CLAM my weight is constant and equals amount of coins? Or something is off with my client?

Age is not a factor in the CLAM stake kernel; ergo, the weight will not go up over time.

That explains it. Thanks!

SuperClam

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Quote from: bizz on July 01, 2015, 05:31:50 AM

With other pos coins weight goes up over time. But with CLAM my weight is constant and equals amount of coins? Or something is off with my client?

Age is not a factor in the CLAM stake kernel; ergo, the weight will not go up over time.

bizz

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With other pos coins weight goes up over time. But with CLAM my weight is constant and equals amount of coins? Or something is off with my client?

dooglus

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Quote from: chilly2k on June 30, 2015, 07:05:15 AM

from 6/22 - 6/29 I staked 41.0029 clams the starting size was about 2450

So 7 day at an average of 5.8576 per day. Would give .00239 %

You need to multiply by 100 to get percentage numbers. 1% of 2450 is 24.5, so the ~6 per day you're seeing is about a quarter of that, or about 0.25%.

Edit: I would encourage you try keep solo-staking for another month, and post your stats at the end of each week. I would be interested to see how much variance you experience, and whether you continue to outperform JD on average. I think it would be a close call, but from the analysis I've done I would expect the ~14% orphan rate you get solo staking to overwhelm the 10% commission that JD charges. It's possible that my calculation of the orphan rate is wrong. Are you saying you only saw 2 orphans in 43 staked blocks, one of which you attribute to your own activity? If so, that's much lower than I would expect.

dooglus

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Quote from: almightyruler on June 30, 2015, 02:45:38 AM

I guess there may be a way to lightweight stake by only keeping track of a relatively recent set of blocks - enough to be confident that we're on the best chain - plus any older ones that contain transactions which directly involve our addresses/accounts.

Unfortunately, in order to validate new blocks you need to check that the transactions in that block are legally spending the coins they spend. And those coins could have been created in any previous block. So you need the whole blockchain (or at least a complete set of unspent outputs).

Also, while it isn't strictly necessary for you to include other people's transactions in your blocks, it's pretty rude not to. And so you need the blockchain to validate that the transactions you include are valid.

The Just-Dice hot wallet is currently using 1.51 Gb of virtual memory, with a resident set size of 491 Mb,
and the staking wallet is using 1.74 Gb of virtual memory, with a resident set size of 607 Mb.

I have a clamd running on my laptop which has been running for 24 hours with a new clean wallet. It has seen no transactions of its own.
It is using 1.41 Gb of virtual memory, with a resident set size of 245 Mb.
If I restart it and wait for it to load up the (tiny) wallet, it uses 1.04 Gb of virtual memory, with a resident set size of 401 Mb.

So yeah - it's kind of hungry. I'm sure there are things we can do to reduce its memory footprint if that seems worth doing to anyone.

chilly2k

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Quote from: BayAreaCoins on June 29, 2015, 05:04:17 PM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.

I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

If you invest at Just-dice you will make more money, but you will be contributing to CLAM being centralized.

I had to see how this played out.

from 6/22 - 6/29 I staked 41.0029 clams the starting size was about 2450

So 7 day at an average of 5.8576 per day. Would give .00239 %

I always see .002% just staking on JD. which would be 4.9 clams per day.

So in my case staking alone is much better an extra 6.7 clams in 7 days. or 350 clams a year.

This was a small sample and your mileage may vary. But it does show that staking solo can be done and can compete with JD.

There were 2 orphans in the sample. And I believe one was when I was staking a new block of 250 clams and splitting the output into blocks of 5.

I think that took 2 tries.

almightyruler

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Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 09:15:24 PM

CLAM staking requires barely any CPU power. You just need internet and coins.

And RAM, unfortunately. clamd on my Odroid C1 currently consumes 400MB worth of it, but I've seen it go higher.

I guess there may be a way to lightweight stake by only keeping track of a relatively recent set of blocks - enough to be confident that we're on the best chain - plus any older ones that contain transactions which directly involve our addresses/accounts.

BayAreaCoins

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Quote from: rocoro on June 29, 2015, 09:48:21 PM

Quote from: SuperClam on June 29, 2015, 09:23:13 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 09:15:24 PM

CLAM staking requires barely any CPU power. You just need internet and coins.

Oddly, it may also incentivize manufacturers to design for long-term durability, as opposed to planned obsolescence Tongue

At least that would be the way to maximize your stake potential, as more coins == more stakes Tongue

I was referring to a Tamagotchi not having enough power, which I doubt it has enough.
But this also poses a question in my mind.

Would it be better for 1,000's of little "digital pets" staking 1 coin each. Or more per digital pet?
Maybe it doesn't matter? I just thought maybe they would be split up better.

I hope I wouldn't lose any of my little pets though lol.

1 coin per pet Tongue

Teddy miners

rocoro

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Quote from: SuperClam on June 29, 2015, 09:23:13 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 09:15:24 PM

CLAM staking requires barely any CPU power. You just need internet and coins.

Oddly, it may also incentivize manufacturers to design for long-term durability, as opposed to planned obsolescence Tongue

At least that would be the way to maximize your stake potential, as more coins == more stakes Tongue

I was referring to a Tamagotchi not having enough power (doesn't even have wifi), which I doubt it has enough.
But this also poses a question in my mind.

Would it be better for 1,000's of little "digital pets" staking 1 coin each. Or more per digital pet?
Maybe it doesn't matter? I just thought maybe they would be split up better.

I hope I wouldn't lose any of my little pets though lol.

SuperClam

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Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 09:15:24 PM

CLAM staking requires barely any CPU power. You just need internet and coins.

Oddly, it may also incentivize manufacturers to design for long-term durability, as opposed to planned obsolescence Tongue

At least that would be the way to maximize your stake potential, as more coins == more stakes Tongue

chriswen

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CLAM staking requires barely any CPU power. You just need internet and coins.

rocoro

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Maybe you could have something like Tamagotchi's or little digital pets staking(digging?) for clams.
I know an order of magnitude of better hardware would be required, not sure if it can be made small enough yet.

BayAreaCoins

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Quote from: SuperClam on June 29, 2015, 07:10:29 PM

Now THAT, is an interesting proposition

Anyone want to beat 21 Inc. to market with crypto producing consumer goods? Cheesy

LOL

It makes WAY more sense to stake with a toaster than hash with a toster.

That is a really really funny idea.

I had an idea about using a Tesla for staking my CLAMS and even made the down payment, but the idea got shot down Cry

.

Edit: Shot down is too strong. More like the idea was tabled.

SuperClam

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 03:56:00 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 03:48:27 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 03:17:30 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 11:40:40 AM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 10:54:32 AM

I have a few noob questions.
I have my clams in my wallet, they are staking but even though I have quite a few, it is only expected to stake every 49710 days! how can that be?
I moved them to my wallet on Saturday, but the age hasn't increased. They are still staking at 1 per CLAM, does the age only increase when I have the client open? Can they only stake when it is open?
Does it matter that I use 1.4.3.0? The new ones want to re-index, so I am not in a hurry to update!

I'm pretty sure that in all of the POS coins you can only stake when your wallet is open. If you're not connected, you're not in the race. I'm not an expert (and many others in this thread actually are experts) but if I understand correctly, POS is a lot like POW in that you are racing against others to find a hash that fulfills certain criteria.

Actually most POS coins have age and you can't rewards based on the age. Clam has a system where there is no age. So only the people that are online more and secure the network get more rewards.
So to reiterate, clams doesn't have age.

Right, this is the "proof of working stake" thing. I had forgotten bout this when trying to answer bitcoiner2015's question. Clam is not really POS or POW but a hybrid.

That's a really interesting way to put it. Proof of working stake sounds nice. But I wouldn't call it a hybrid POS or POW. It is still very POS like but they just changed how it works. Actually I think it can still be classified as POS because its based purely on the coins you control. Also there's not really any POW being done (yes there's hashing but it's not used as proof).

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.
I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

As with any service, there is certain amount of counter-party risk associated with keeping your coins with a third-party. dooglus and Just-Dice happen to have a reputation for being extremely trustworthy - minimizing this risk. In addition, at Just-Dice you are exposed to the potential of investor gains/loses. Finally, Just-Dice takes a 10% fee/cut of staked rewards. This fee is likely reduced (possibly entirely) by the fact that dooglus dominates the staking environment, orphaning other users who attempt to compete.

Quote from: almightyruler on June 29, 2015, 06:49:56 PM

If you're handy with Linux or happy to learn, setting up clamd on a Raspberry Pi (or similar low power, low cost ARM based computer) may be an option to permit 24/7/365 staking. Only downside is that because RAM is limited, you'll probably only be able to run one or two coins on it. I gave up trying to run both CLAM and ORB; the computer was constantly swapping to and from the memory card (ouch).
I've currently dedicated an Odroid C1 (USD$35, quad core ARM @1.5GHz) to CLAM, but I've just realised that I could even run the daemon on my Pi based security cam... a security camera that generates coins! Cheesy

Now THAT, is an interesting proposition

Anyone want to beat 21 Inc. to market with crypto producing consumer goods? Cheesy

almightyruler

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If you're handy with Linux or happy to learn, setting up clamd on a Raspberry Pi (or similar low power, low cost ARM based computer) may be an option to permit 24/7/365 staking. Only downside is that because RAM is limited, you'll probably only be able to run one or two coins on it. I gave up trying to run both CLAM and ORB; the computer was constantly swapping to and from the memory card (ouch).

I've currently dedicated an Odroid C1 (USD$35, quad core ARM @1.5GHz) to CLAM, but I've just realised that I could even run the daemon on my Pi based security cam... a security camera that generates coins! Cheesy

BayAreaCoins

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Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 04:13:51 PM

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.

I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

If you invest at Just-dice you will make more money, but you will be contributing to CLAM being centralized.

Bitcoiner2015

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Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 03:56:00 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 03:48:27 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 03:17:30 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 11:40:40 AM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 10:54:32 AM

I have a few noob questions.
I have my clams in my wallet, they are staking but even though I have quite a few, it is only expected to stake every 49710 days! how can that be?
I moved them to my wallet on Saturday, but the age hasn't increased. They are still staking at 1 per CLAM, does the age only increase when I have the client open? Can they only stake when it is open?

Does it matter that I use 1.4.3.0? The new ones want to re-index, so I am not in a hurry to update!

I'm pretty sure that in all of the POS coins you can only stake when your wallet is open. If you're not connected, you're not in the race. I'm not an expert (and many others in this thread actually are experts) but if I understand correctly, POS is a lot like POW in that you are racing against others to find a hash that fulfills certain criteria.

Actually most POS coins have age and you can't rewards based on the age. Clam has a system where there is no age. So only the people that are online more and secure the network get more rewards.

So to reiterate, clams doesn't have age.

Right, this is the "proof of working stake" thing. I had forgotten bout this when trying to answer bitcoiner2015's question. Clam is not really POS or POW but a hybrid.

That's a really interesting way to put it. Proof of working stake sounds nice. But I wouldn't call it a hybrid POS or POW. It is still very POS like but they just changed how it works. Actually I think it can still be classified as POS because its based purely on the coins you control. Also there's not really any POW being done (yes there's hashing but it's not used as proof).

So to effectively stake I should invest my CLAMs at Just-Dice? Is there any real downside to that?
I had thought they would constantly stake, but I only have my computer on for a few hours a day, so guess it isn't going to be worth it in the clam wallet.

I updated to the new wallet and now it says I should stake in 1 day! A big difference!

chriswen

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Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 03:48:27 PM

Quote from: chriswen on June 29, 2015, 03:17:30 PM

Quote from: tspacepilot on June 29, 2015, 11:40:40 AM

Quote from: Bitcoiner2015 on June 29, 2015, 10:54:32 AM

I have a few noob questions.
I have my clams in my wallet, they are staking but even though I have quite a few, it is only expected to stake every 49710 days! how can that be?
I moved them to my wallet on Saturday, but the age hasn't increased. They are still staking at 1 per CLAM, does the age only increase when I have the client open? Can they only stake when it is open?

Does it matter that I use 1.4.3.0? The new ones want to re-index, so I am not in a hurry to update!

I'm pretty sure that in all of the POS coins you can only stake when your wallet is open. If you're not connected, you're not in the race. I'm not an expert (and many others in this thread actually are experts) but if I understand correctly, POS is a lot like POW in that you are racing against others to find a hash that fulfills certain criteria.

Actually most POS coins have age and you can't rewards based on the age. Clam has a system where there is no age. So only the people that are online more and secure the network get more rewards.

So to reiterate, clams doesn't have age.

Right, this is the "proof of working stake" thing. I had forgotten bout this when trying to answer bitcoiner2015's question. Clam is not really POS or POW but a hybrid.

That's a really interesting way to put it. Proof of working stake sounds nice. But I wouldn't call it a hybrid POS or POW. It is still very POS like but they just changed how it works. Actually I think it can still be classified as POS because its based purely on the coins you control. Also there's not really any POW being done (yes there's hashing but it's not used as proof).

Topic: [ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 334. (Read 1151252 times)