[ANN][CLAM] CLAMs, Proof-Of-Chain, Proof-Of-Working-Stake, a.k.a. "Clamcoin" - page 469.

Quote from: seedtrue on July 20, 2014, 06:53:47 AM

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

True, but only once per output.

If you "dig" for clams now and find that you have one 4.6 pile, that 4.6 pile is around 3 months old and will have an expected time-to-stake of about 1 hour. Once it has staked, however, it is immature, just like any other recently staked coin.

It seems a little unfair to me that early adopters (before the lotto came into effect) "wasted" our mature initial distribution coin age getting tiny (0.0001) stakes and killing the age in the process. New adopters dig up mature coins and get a free lotto entry almost immediately.

dooglus

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Activity: 2940

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I was just now considering the 510 confirm aspect. There has to be some amount where the stack size is "too big" for optimal staking. Even if you get stakes repeatedly for having a large stack, you still have to wait 510 confirms between stakes, so too big could be bad.

I think that's exactly right.

You need to split your stacks up so that none of them is likely to stake within the first 510 blocks.

At minimum difficulty, and 3.5 minutes per block (like we're currently seeing) that means:

>>> 2**20 / (510 * 3.5 * 60)
9.79062558356676

a pile of 10 CLAMS expects to stake at around 510 blocks.

So keep your piles around half that size, or about 5 CLAMS each. By an amazing coincidence that's roughly how big everyone's piles started!

My math may well be wrong here - please check it for me...

dooglus

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Quote from: almightyruler on July 20, 2014, 03:59:15 AM

if the op goes rogue in a PoS pool (eg by disabling withdrawals) he retains a tremendous amount of PoS power, in perpetuity.

Good point.

Quote from: almightyruler on July 20, 2014, 03:59:15 AM

if the op was able to modify the code the pool could choose to stake only when it's worth it. With such a large weight (balance) behind it there is a good chance the pool would win the majority of the lotto blocks, therefore, others have no choice but to join the pool

I don't see why. If the pool has 40% of the weight, it should get 40% of the blocks, and so 40% of the lotto wins. It's linear.

If the pool modifies the code to withhold min-reward blocks, that gives pool members and advantage, but non-pool members can make the same modification and level the playing field without joining the pool.

I don't see the "no choice" argument.

If the pool gets 51% of the weight then they own the network, but that's the same with PoW pools as well.

phzi

hero member

Activity: 700

Merit: 500

Confirmations are slowing to a crawwwl....

undergroundgeek

newbie

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The Network Weight is dropping like crazy I'm noticing.

ymod123

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Merit: 250

Quote from: paulc010 on July 20, 2014, 07:33:08 AM

Quote from: kbroadfoot on July 20, 2014, 11:37:41 AM

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Just worked mine out from last stake reward. 2mins/confirm on that.

my confirmation is staking long too its been 5 hours now still not complete confirmed

Quantum12

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Activity: 364

Merit: 250

Quote from: Quantum12 on July 20, 2014, 05:07:50 AM

I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

You will get more than one payment... even after you stop mining... it is an odd pool...

You are sort of 'spooling up'...

thank for the reply

guess i wait a little longer and see

Q

kbroadfoot

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Activity: 1302

Merit: 1000

Bass Player

Quote from: Quantum12 on July 20, 2014, 05:07:50 AM

I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

You will get more than one payment... even after you stop mining... it is an odd pool...

You are sort of 'spooling up'...

istvandv

sr. member

Activity: 342

Merit: 250

Quote from: seedtrue on July 20, 2014, 07:39:48 AM

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected Wink

the free old clams have an advantage only on the first stake since it has an accumulated coin age

but after that first stake, the coin age resets and would be the same as those who bought their clams

paulc010

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected Wink

While I did receive multiple clams from different privkeys, all of my original clams were sent to the exchange for trading. I sent them all back to different addresses in my wallet once the trading slowed down. I do not have many that are more than a week old.

Well that's good to know

A week old is likely right now to be significant compared to my clams that are only a couple of days old.

Now sitting back chillin' and staking my CLAMs Cheesy

seedtrue

legendary

Activity: 963

Merit: 1002

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected Wink

While I did receive multiple clams from different privkeys, all of my original clams were sent to the exchange for trading. I sent them all back to different addresses in my wallet once the trading slowed down. I do not have many that are more than a week old.

paulc010

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Quote from: ymod123 on July 20, 2014, 06:39:28 AM

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Just worked mine out from last stake reward. 2mins/confirm on that.

paulc010

member

Activity: 92

Merit: 10

Hmmmm. Seems to me that anyone who got free clams own old, mature clams. The lottery now means that those lucky enough to have received free clams (and particularly those who got several piles) are the ones that are getting staking rewards frequently and who have a MUCH larger chance of winning a significant amount of CLAMS via the lottery...

Doesn't this, in effect, mean there's a huge barrier to entry into the CLAM lottery winners club? Probably not intended, but looking at screenshots on here I can't think of any other reason why those of us who bought their CLAMS are finding stake rewards so rare.

Happy to be corrected Wink

istvandv

sr. member

Activity: 342

Merit: 250

Quote from: istvandv on July 20, 2014, 01:54:23 AM

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Quote from: ymod123 on July 20, 2014, 06:39:28 AM

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice. How many addresses to you have your coins split across? Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days! Shocked

is it better to split your coins to many address?

if you have large amounts of clams... yes, its better to split them into multiple addresses

scenario 1:
1 address with 200 clams will stake almost immediately after 510 blocks or right after it matures
giving you interest of .1 - 1000 clams

scenario 2:
address 1 with 100 clams - gives you interest of .1 - 1000 clams after 510 confirms
address 2 with 100 clams - gives you interest of .1 - 1000 clams after 510 confirms

in scenario 2 you get .2 clams and two chances at the clam lottery

note: the clam wallet automatically splits/combines your clams depending on how long it has been since its last stake

seedtrue

legendary

Activity: 963

Merit: 1002

Quote from: istvandv on July 20, 2014, 01:54:23 AM

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Quote from: istvandv on July 20, 2014, 01:54:23 AM

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice. How many addresses to you have your coins split across? Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days! Shocked

is it better to split your coins to many address?

I don't think so. The way I understand it(I could be completely wrong), the bigger the stack of clams, the more often it stakes. In my head I compared it to the real government-run lottery, if I had enough money for 7 tickets, would it be better to play the same numbers each day for a week, or play 7 different combos of numbers on the same day. Statistically, it should be the same right?

edit: I was just now considering the 510 confirm aspect. There has to be some amount where the stack size is "too big" for optimal staking. Even if you get stakes repeatedly for having a large stack, you still have to wait 510 confirms between stakes, so too big could be bad.

ymod123

sr. member

Activity: 432

Merit: 250

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

Quote from: kbroadfoot on July 19, 2014, 07:08:17 PM

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice. How many addresses to you have your coins split across? Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days! Shocked

is it better to split your coins to many address?

Quantum12

sr. member

Activity: 364

Merit: 250

I pointed 11mhz at the clam multipool for 48 hours

so far i have received 0.30 clams in total ,.. for 48 hours of 11 mhz?!?!?!?!??!?

seems an awfull waste of hash and electricity , was expecting a little more tbh ..

disappointed with pool although its premise seems a good idea..

Q

almightyruler

legendary

Activity: 2268

Merit: 1092

Much like POW mining pools, I bet there would be some sort of way to do a CLAM POS staking lottery pool....

The trouble with this is that a pool "re"-centralizes what should be a decentralized operation, and it's worse than PoW. If an operator of a PoW pool goes rogue, miners may lose funds, but they stop sending shares; if the op goes rogue in a PoS pool (eg by disabling withdrawals) he retains a tremendous amount of PoS power, in perpetuity.

The other issue with a PoS pool is that you'd have to keep a large amount of your funds with a third party. With a PoW pool you can basically withdraw as fast as you mine.

And finally, if the op was able to modify the code the pool could choose to stake only when it's worth it. With such a large weight (balance) behind it there is a good chance the pool would win the majority of the lotto blocks, therefore, others have no choice but to join the pool, making the pool even stronger and more centralized, compounding the above issues...

tl;dr a rogue PoS pool op can 51% the network or run off with your funds

istvandv

sr. member

Activity: 342

Merit: 250

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?

[im]https://i.imgur.com/91vc5JS.png[/img]

Heh, nice. How many addresses to you have your coins split across? Trying to find a more optimal distribution for my stash right now.

i see 420 up to j
and polo up to 8

my guess at least 18 coin piles
wish i had as much clams to split up
i had 6.6 clams that staked after 5 days! Shocked

phzi

hero member

Activity: 700

Merit: 500

Is it just my imagination, or are confirmations coming in really slowly today?