[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 106.

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 07:17:02 AM

Quote from: toknormal on November 14, 2020, 07:11:45 AM

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 07:02:40 AM

Please provide evidence tying miners to operating also masternodes and please provide evidence that such combo is directly responsible for Dash price decline.

It's actually more incumbent on you to demonstrate that they're not since the protocol encourages hybrid mining as the most profitable configuration.

It is not me supporting thunderjet assumptions, and it is not me needing to provide evidence for those assumptions.
The ball is clearly in you and thunderjet corner.

If you can't find any evidence then this will just remain a base-less assumption, a personal opinion that is lacking evidence.

Wheres your evidence that a dash/masternode hybrid isn't worth doing? It seems very obvious that small miners who can't afford a masternode will be squeezed out.

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: toknormal on November 14, 2020, 07:11:45 AM

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 07:02:40 AM

Please provide evidence tying miners to operating also masternodes and please provide evidence that such combo is directly responsible for Dash price decline.

It's actually more incumbent on you to demonstrate that they're not since the protocol encourages hybrid mining as the most profitable configuration.

It is not me supporting thunderjet assumption that miners also operate masternodes and are behind Dash price decline. And it is not me needing to provide evidence for those assumptions.
The ball is clearly in you and thunderjet corner.

If you can't find any evidence then this will just remain a base-less assumption, a personal opinion that is lacking evidence.

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: birdonthewire on November 14, 2020, 07:04:42 AM

Sorry, I insist: Any link to any point where a fork has been valued?
I'm interested in the topic

thank you.

The fork idea was that dash core group could fork Dash with different reward allocations by having one fork going in the direction of Ryans proposal. Toknormal proposed an idea (which was quickly stamped on by nearly everyone who heard it) that Dash core group could make another fork in which miner allocation was increased. So one fork would support growing the masternode network the other would support strengthening hashrate and scarcity. We could then see in a real world market situation what the market prefers.

edit Unlike contentious hard forks this would have both sides supported by Dash community. Possibly even bringing a lot of attention to Dash. Masternode owners would have the same masternode collatoral on both forks. They would also be able to choose to dump one fork to support the other. Toknormal hasn't endorsed this for a long time that I've seen. But qwizzie likes to bring it up every now and then and imply that it is contentious and toknormal is malicious in intent.

toknormal

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1188

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 07:02:40 AM

Please provide evidence tying miners to operating also masternodes and please provide evidence that such combo is directly responsible for Dash price decline.

It's actually more incumbent on you to demonstrate that they're not since the protocol encourages hybrid mining as the most profitable configuration. So if you're trying to make the argument that for some reason this option is not being pursued and that miners & masternodes are distinct demographics than that would go against natural economic incentives and would be quite a bold claim.

Hybrid mining doesn't so much contribute to a "price decline" as a relative loss of marketcap compared with our 100% mined competitors. The reason for that is that they don't have the option of reducing their aggregate difficulty by running masternodes which can mine at zero difficulty alongside their mining rigs.

To a mining cartel, a masternode is simply a $67,000 miner capable of bypassing the difficulty barrier. Therefore = zero scarcity.

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 07:05:51 AM

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:55:24 AM

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 06:52:20 AM

It is a compelling argument. Miners like everyone are motivated by how to maximise their own profit. This is game theory. Large miners who can also afford to run masternodes will push out those miners who do not. I don't see any good counterargument to this

I am not interested in game theory, assumptions, opinions, i am interested in facts and evidence supporting those facts.
There is simply no evidence of large miners also running masternodes. Just like there is no evidence that a miners/masternode combo is behind the Dash price decline.

Provide evidence and we actually have something worthy to discuss further.

What is that chart if not evidence that something weird is happening? It shows mining profitability is in a chronic decline. Yes they embrace the proposal. This seems to be a big disconnect. Hashrate continues to be relatively high. This points to miners not caring about profit. This is strange no?

There is no word from any mining pools that I know of. They are strangely silent on this matter.

Something strange does not equal as being evidence that miners also operate masternodes or that a miner/masternode combo is behind the Dash price decline. (most Altcoins are experiencing the same level of price decline as Dash).
Also the mining hashrate in general has not been affected so far i can tell :

Source : https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-hashrate.html

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: birdonthewire on November 14, 2020, 07:04:42 AM

Sorry, I insist: Any link to any point where a fork has been valued?
I'm interested in the topic

thank you.

I already provided you that. Here once more :

Quote

Fork it.

I think DCG should just fork the code. One at 30% mining reward and the other at 70%. Then let the miners & market discover which priority is more valuable. It would be an amazing experiment and worthwhile because it would empirically prove one or other priority as viable with market endorsement.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.54776524

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:55:24 AM

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 06:52:20 AM

It is a compelling argument. Miners like everyone are motivated by how to maximise their own profit. This is game theory. Large miners who can also afford to run masternodes will push out those miners who do not. I don't see any good counterargument to this

I am not interested in game theory, assumptions, opinions, i am interested in facts and evidence supporting those facts.
There is simply no evidence of large miners also running masternodes. Just like there is no evidence that a miners/masternode combo is behind the Dash price decline.

Provide evidence and we actually have something worthy to discuss further.

What is that chart if not evidence that something weird is happening? It shows mining profitability is in a chronic decline. Yes they embrace the proposal. This seems to be a big disconnect. Hashrate continues to be relatively high. This points to miners not caring about profit. This is strange no?

There is no word from any mining pools that I know of. They are strangely silent on this matter.

birdonthewire

member

Activity: 274

Merit: 10

Sorry, I insist: Any link to any point where a fork has been valued?
I'm interested in the topic

thank you.

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: toknormal on November 14, 2020, 07:00:12 AM

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:51:49 AM

Where is the evidence on that chart pointing to miners also being masternode operators and that the centralized miner/masternode combo is the driving force behind Dash price decline ?
Where is the missing link ?

The evidence is here. Whether they are doing it or not right now is irrelevant. The protocol encourages the hybrid configuration it as the optimal approach to mining.

1 : Source please of picture.
2 : That picture does not on itself proof that miners also operate masternodes. Or proof that miners/masternode combo is responsible for Dash price decline.

Please provide evidence tying miners to operating also masternodes and please provide evidence that such combo is directly responsible for Dash price decline.

toknormal

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1188

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:51:49 AM

Where is the evidence on that chart pointing to miners also being masternode operators and that the centralized miner/masternode combo is the driving force behind Dash price decline ?
Where is the missing link ?

The evidence is here. Whether they are doing it or not right now is irrelevant. The protocol encourages the hybrid configuration as the optimal approach to mining because it results in reduces aggregate difficulty and an earlier break-even point. The reduced aggregate difficulty contributes to "driving down prices" when compared with 100% mined competitors.

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 06:52:20 AM

It is a compelling argument. Miners like everyone are motivated by how to maximise their own profit. This is game theory. Large miners who can also afford to run masternodes will push out those miners who do not. I don't see any good counterargument to this

I am not interested in game theory, assumptions, opinions, i am interested in facts and evidence supporting those facts.
There is simply no evidence of large miners also running masternodes. Just like there is no evidence that a miners/masternode combo is behind the Dash price decline.

Provide evidence and we actually have something worthy to discuss further.

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: toknormal on November 14, 2020, 06:46:15 AM

Here's a chart that totally supports thunderjet's assertions: (Though you get the same for LTC at this scale. Worth studying in more detail).

It is a compelling argument. Miners like everyone are motivated by how to maximise their own profit. This is game theory. Large miners who can also afford to run masternodes will push out those miners who do not. I don't see any good counterargument to this

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: toknormal on November 14, 2020, 06:46:15 AM

Here's a chart that totally supports thunderjet's assertions: (Though you get the same for LTC at this scale. Worth studying more).

Where is the evidence on that chart pointing to miners also being masternode operators and that the centralized miner/masternode combo is the driving force behind Dash price decline ?
Where is the missing link ?

This support nothing.

birdonthewire

member

Activity: 274

Merit: 10

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:30:41 AM

Like these negative rhetorics from toknormal ?

I have never used him as an example,that is your business ... nor do I believe that, in fact, he is in that sense - and neither will I be - ... but that does not authorize what you - or the rest of us - do along that line.

I just come here tired of going around in circles ... so I will try to present information that helps to objectively analyze a problem, or several, that must be faced, imo. Without a change in that sense, DASH does not interest me at all, because imo, its potential, which is what seduced me, will never be optimized.

Anything that does not go out there is useless and is wasting time. And I will not give mine away, that is worthless.

P.S. and to escape noise and personalities I tell you that I will be the target of this same filtering ... and sometimes with good reason. Better for everyone if so, NP.

I consider this specific point settled, which I think has already been made clear, more laps will only be noise.

A greeting.

toknormal

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1188

Here's a chart that totally supports thunderjet's assertions: (Though you get the same for LTC at this scale. Worth studying in more detail).

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Dash versus bitcoin

chart

On a more positive note Dash has climbed above the red trendline. Looks like will probably test it as support rather than resistance next. The black line above is the big one dash needs to push through.

Heres a zoomed out version

chart

qwizzie

legendary

Activity: 2548

Merit: 1245

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 06:36:03 AM

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:30:41 AM

Quote from: birdonthewire on November 14, 2020, 06:26:49 AM

@qwizzie

I do not deny that there are affirmations supported (with greater or lesser success) ... but many others that are pure negative rhetoric to which - I will try - not to contribute. For me personally, it's like they don't exist ... as simple as that.

a greeting

Like these negative rhetorics from toknormal ?

Quote

They are eating the capital value of the chain like a starving animal that starts to consume its own flesh to survive.

Quote

I realise that masternode holders want holiday cruises, but f*k'm

Quote

They all want out on the next pump.
No worries. I'll be joining them

Quote

Use MN rewards as bottomless well of bribery payments in exchange for hodling, and it'll do the exact opposite.

Quote

Demise as a competitive crypto asset when compared with its 100% mined contemporaries.

Quote

Sometimes I don't think Dash investors realise what they bought or how to protect it. If you wanted to invest in utility (rather than a mobile, versatile commodity) you should have bought Mastercard shares, or some other type of blockchain security who's protocol is designed to host entire nation's worth of debt securities.

Quote

Stock buyback economics.
Let the masternodes "suck" the Dash off the market.

Quote

Lets get Dash back to an inspiring ideal rather than "how much free money can I get from my masternode", meanwhile the market is at liberty to simply trash that "free money" back to the dark ages in Satoshi or $USD value as it sees fit.

Dump all kinds of negative rhetorics for months and months on this forum, and people can expect to get negative rhetorics back.

Taking all these quotes out of context does not support any argument you are trying to make

toknormal has engaged in very low level posting directed at masternode operators (of which he is one himself) for many months now, engaging in mostly negative rhetorics ever since his post to fork Dash.
All in an effort to further advocate his own own market theory, i assume. I can provide his full quotes (which will most likely take a full page), but that would not change the nature of those posts, which is simply very negative rhetorics.

toknormal

legendary

Activity: 3066

Merit: 1188

Quote from: afbitcoins on November 14, 2020, 06:30:58 AM

This does not provide a clear picture of anything. The dash transaction scale goes super high due to massive spikes. you can't actually see the dash transactions properly on this chart

The only way to get a decent scale from that source is to chop out the stress tests.

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: qwizzie on November 14, 2020, 06:30:41 AM

Quote from: birdonthewire on November 14, 2020, 06:26:49 AM

@qwizzie

I do not deny that there are affirmations supported (with greater or lesser success) ... but many others that are pure negative rhetoric to which - I will try - not to contribute. For me personally, it's like they don't exist ... as simple as that.

a greeting

Like these negative rhetorics from toknormal ?

Quote

They are eating the capital value of the chain like a starving animal that starts to consume its own flesh to survive.

Quote

I realise that masternode holders want holiday cruises, but f*k'm

Quote

They all want out on the next pump.
No worries. I'll be joining them

Quote

Use MN rewards as bottomless well of bribery payments in exchange for hodling, and it'll do the exact opposite.

Quote

Demise as a competitive crypto asset when compared with its 100% mined contemporaries.

Quote

Sometimes I don't think Dash investors realise what they bought or how to protect it. If you wanted to invest in utility (rather than a mobile, versatile commodity) you should have bought Mastercard shares, or some other type of blockchain security who's protocol is designed to host entire nation's worth of debt securities.

Quote

Stock buyback economics.
Let the masternodes "suck" the Dash off the market.

Quote

Lets get Dash back to an inspiring ideal rather than "how much free money can I get from my masternode", meanwhile the market is at liberty to simply trash that "free money" back to the dark ages in Satoshi or $USD value as it sees fit.

Dump all kinds of negative rhetorics for months and months on this forum, and people can expect to get negative rhetorics back.

Taking all these quotes out of context does not support any argument you are trying to make

afbitcoins

legendary

Activity: 2101

Merit: 1061

Quote from: toknormal on November 13, 2020, 11:31:24 AM

This does not provide a clear picture of anything. The dash transaction scale goes super high due to massive spikes. you can't actually see the dash transactions properly on this chart

Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 106. (Read 9724017 times)