Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 51. (Read 9723748 times)

I have to mark here you do not have sense of reality. Afbit, Tok, me and so many, many others are people that DASH needs ( well, not in yor universe ). And you don't get it,  we are not that emotional. Rather we are clear minded, now even not wondering anymore why you don't get it.
   Or let's make it this way: you are doing yourself favor ( maybe ) , and doing us NOTfavor.

 If you wanted to understand - you can find our posts here dating long long ago and supporting until lately, since we see a PROBLEM. You do not see a PROBLEM. You say everything is GOOD, Marketcap and other parameters are UNIMPORTANT, one day DASH will... etc... for us that makes it clear you lost sense of reality.

   To Paint it ( Tok's style ) : this all looks like Titanic floating and we are few left on it and yelling " ICEBERG!" ... ( and many others jumped off already ) 

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Reward allocation IS direct result of what I am saying.

some time ago many ppl here discussed it and many opposed - i didn't understand why. Now I do.

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

But why so emotional? Why do you get mad when someone disagrees with you?

You say you made a great move for selling at 0.005 BTC and I say so far it seems that way... but in the life of DASH, relatively speaking, you did sell at the bottom. And I would guess, that the odds are, that DASH will revisit 0.01 BTC this year and likely even much higher. Do I know for sure? No, but don't get mad at me. Perhaps what you bought with the DASH you sold will perform better or just as well anyway.

But it's the high emotions and the supposed 'reasons' people have that make many cryptos so profitable. If you can keep your emotions in check and buy when people are so negative and sell when people are so positive, you'll do much better than most.

I get what you are saying but to me its all about the reward allocation.

To qwizzie I am interested in Dash, whether currently invested or not. If masternodes owners see sense and vote for something like an allocation described by toknormal recently a 'sweet spot'. I would like to invest in dash.

I am negative because the direction is wrong, it is frustrating to see a project that ticks all the right boxes fail so badly on such a 'simple' thing to fix. Dash works, could work, should work, the people making decisions doesn't 

qwizze what i dislike about you is so many things you shill, you accuse people who believe in dash but have different opinion than you of being trolls. You quote my name and my supposed bad decision to sell but then can't argue when i call you out. You think you are helping dash with your input you are not. What you do now. Thank me for boosting this thread page posts ? Threaten me with ignore? Remind everyone I sold? You are low. Very low

What i don't understand is how people can sell their Dash, feel really negative about Dash to the point that they stop recommending it to others, but still feel such an overwhelming need
to read and reply to (often negatively) posts in this Dash ANN sub-forum. A Dash ANN sub-forum that they not participated in for many many years, but which somehow got their full attention
last year. I guess i will never fully understand that.

People should not invest or stop investing in crypto because of what someone reads or writes in this forum, they should invest in Dash or other cryptocurrencies after doing their homework.
That homework does not (and should not) include this sub-forum. This sub-forum is nothing more of a shoutbox anyways these days, with little added value to serious investors.

At least it has some visibility for Dash announcements and is a place for discussions. But if those discussions are the same type of discussions that has been held for the last nine months, then the discussions part will loose its attraction as well. What remains is a place for trolls, endless repeating discussions about the blockreward allocation change by toknormal and afbitcoins (and those feeding them) and Dash public announcements.

Nothing wrong with that, i guess.
Although it does sound like a sad place to dwell in  

Unfortunetely it is not a place i like to dwell in, so i decided to take a break from this sub-forum. A little unplugging of the mind so to speak.



So long and thank you for all the fish! 

Man...last  I sold was at 0.008 and now can buy back a lot more but that is not what we are talking about. Than I was thinking about buying back but didn't. And now I am glad that didn't. That is sad, DASH is great coin. But lost that old Cyberpunk spirit, MN owners now behave like government, DASH is their state. I  ( hmm, we ) just moved elsewhere. And I just stopped talking about DASH ( to my many many friends that I invited to crypto ).

It's just the same as in macro vs micro economics. The "trader" perspective is fine as far as it goes. But it has to reconcile at some point with the macro perspective which basically involves reconciling aggregate capital flows. You can't ONLY see things from a trading perspective because you will never see the big picture. The big picture has to make sense and in looking at the big picture we need to invoke known, tried and tested economic theories that are known to be instructive in analysing these capital flows.

Two in particular apply to Dash:

1: the theory of perfect competition

This is just common sense, but tells us that if a network operator is making a gazillion times more profit than another network operator (known as "Supernormal Profit"), the market will act to reconcile profitability by devaluing the supernormal profits until they become competitive again. From this theory alone we can see that Dash masternode profits are unsustainable, both within the Dash ecosystem itself and in the broader crypto ecosystem because they are totally uncompetitive at higher valuations of Dash. They therefore make the marketcap unscalable. They absorb far too much blockchain supply for them to maintain a high dollar valuation. So we can see that the market has responded to our uncompetitiveness in this regard by devaluing us in ranking.

This is why I proposed that we should set net reward share at parity in this post ("sweet spot") as being the optimal competitive protocol configuration for Dash.

2. the use of "Primary" and "Secondary" markets as an analytical tool to study monetary commodity markets

Mined crypto is EXACTLY like the fine art market in this regard. (or even the gold market). One MUST take into account the cost of mining a coin from the blockchain when looking at market flows because that is a legitimate market source just as an exchange is. Anyone wanting to "buy" Dash always has the choice of mining it or buying from an exchange. These are both markets and the price that they pay for their Dash in extracting it from the blockchain is just as legitimate a "price" as that paid by a secondary buyer on an exchange.

What you're "missing" is that masternodes are not some kind of insiders as far as the sums go. They are simply part of the primary market which is receiving the coin for free. So imagine I am a fishing boat offloading a catch at a market. I have 100 customers. I charge 50 of them $10 per fish and I give another 50 the fish for free. What will happen ? Two markets will form because the 50 customers that received their "free fish" can re-sell theirs for $5 and make $5 profit, thereby tanking the secondary market value.

Saying that "ah but masternodes don't sell their rewards" is no counter argument to this. It doesn't matter if they sell or not at a macro level. What matters is that the coins are worthless to the holders in terms of cost base. They have value by association with the REAL mined supply and nothing more. This can only be rectified by addressing our mining deficit and restoring it to an optimal level since we are way past the point of diminishing returns with the current protocol split.

FINAL NOTE:
Masternode rewards are a carrot in terms of attracting buyers, but this only has an effect while the masternode count is growing. I'm talking about the equilibrium situation, when the nodecount is static. We must be able to sustain a valuation at that point. That's what we need to analyse properly and make work in terms of store of value. Amanda's video shows how Proof of Stake coins do it and why that is not going to work for Dash. Until monetary velocity is sufficient to sustain us (think 10 years time if we're lucky) we need mining. There is no other sustaining store of value mechanism available.

Tok, I am still not seeing it, are we talking about unrealised profit and loss?  Because if for example I get paid a reward for running my masternode and then one day accidently send it a burn address, that DASH is then forever destroyed and importantly never got the chance to be sold and thus partake in price discovery, so I don't believe it is actual sell pressure on the coin.  You seem to suggest that its (the mined coin) mere existence is sell pressure.  I strongly disagree.  As a trader, I see that the DASH price is determined at the exchange (the market) and the market is simply made up of people that buy and sell for a variety of reasons, many of which are little more sophisticated than their emotions.  Is it possible you are reading in too deep here, likely prompted by your relatively recent re-evaluation due to the clarification of UK tax law?

No, because whether they sell or not doesn't affect the capital flow equations in terms of value. The value is transferred as soon as the masternode receives the reward, not when they sell it. At that point it manifests in the books of the first holder as profit. So if you were to compare the books of a miner with those of a masternode holder you'd see the difference. The miner's "book" would register a cost. It's that cost which was spent on raising the price of Dash in the primary market (i.e. the 'market' where coins are obtained directly from the blockchain as opposed to from another holder). But the masternode's book would register almost 99% profit. Masternode revenue is not passed on to Dash's primary market.

It's that "profit margin" that the market is marking down in value compared to other mined coins. Nothing to do with "early fast mining".

We're simply p*ssing valuable blockchain revenue up a wall where Bitcoin & Doge are not and markets are valuing us accordingly. That's all.





By the way, when I started arguing that Ryan had got his analysis the "wrong way around" about a year ago, people ridiculed that view and pointed to proof of stake coins as evidence that I was wrong. But I responded that those POS chains had a completely different economic model and archetype to support their price which was that scarcity was achieved through token consumption by on-chain Daps or contractural securitisation as a replacement for mining.

Luckily Amanda B Johnson has now come along with a very nicely presented explanation which illustrates exactly that point in her new video "Why are fees on Bitcoin and Ethereum often so high? | How Dash Fixed It"

Enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Uux9RUtw0

Thanks for that explanation, Tok, but I still don't get it, and I suppose that is part of the reason why we don't see eye to eye on this matter, but it sounds like you are saying that hashrate is underpinning the price and effectively the same as buying the coin?  I just don't see it.



Bang on!  Struck the nail on the head with this one and uncovered the primary reason why DASH has suffered such a brutal bear market.  I have recently started referring to this problem as DASH's asymmetric coin supply, which is the effect of minting 2 million coins (fastmine) in the first few days and THEN also reducing the coin's emission from the then 84 million (which would have diluted the error fairly) to just 20 million.  This meant that the initial coins (the bulk) were all generated and priced at rock bottom prices, but our bull run went up on low (thin) volume of artificially restricted supply and formed a humungous bubble.  Now as all the OGs tried to take profit, they flooded the market with far too many coins than it could handle didn't give it a toss, because pretty much any price above a few dollars still represented immense profit for them.

Then we can back track it even further and come to realise that the actual amount of cash that went into DASH in the early days was next to zero, you see, DASH was launched at a magical time, it was launched just as Bitcoin was confirmed in the bear market.  So good folks such as yourself traded the 2013 Bitcoin bubble like a whizz and took profit into fiat on that bubble and used 'free bitcoin' to invest into the next bubble - Xcoin.  So, really, how much money was put into DASH by the originals?  Should we be surprised then that it was beaten to death despite having some good underpinnings, such as IS/PS/DAO together with some non-tangibles?


I also have one further question for Tok if I may.  Have you done the chain analysis or do you have it, that shows how the MNO rewards are spent?  It seems to me that you assume they are directly spent as mandated by your Majesty the Queen, but is this the actual case?

I have done the chain analysis and in general there are some large node clusters that immediately sell, eg the 120 nodes whale and the 270 node Binance operator, but we have many MNOs that hold their rewards and only come to sell them when they sell the node as well.  It might not make much difference on the timing, not sure, but if they (mnos) are not methodically selling rewards then it stands to reason that an improvement in sentiment (among MNOs) may cause them to hold onto the nodes for longer and thus restrict supply which is the issue is it not?  More supply than demand?

Stay tuned? To you ?        

No thanks

As I said no matter what picture you are trying to paint Dash is a lot lower now than when I sold.

heres dash vs bitcoin



Still bearish

If I could be bothered I could find quotes from you declaring the bottom all the way down this bear market.

Lets take a look at how Bitcoin price is doing and compare that with Dash price :

Bitcoin Daily Chart

Source : https://cryptowat.ch/charts/BITSTAMP:BTC-USD?period=1d

Bitcoin price seems to register lower tops over time. Bearish sentiment taking over ? Stay tuned.

Bitcoin Monthly Chart

Source : tradingview.com

Bitcoin price dropped from $42,000 to $27,734 corrected to $31,823 and is now contemplating its next move.
I suspect MACD to signal a change in trend next month (1st of February) or the month after that.


Dash Daily Chart


Dash price dumped pretty hard, together with pretty much every altcoin out there during Bitcoin's sharp price drop.

Dash Monthly Chart


Dash price still very stable, not much changed there.

Dash price % down from ATH : -93,1%
Dash highest price % down from ATH during this Altcoins bear market : -97% (if i remember correctly)
Source : messari.io

Interesting development happening on the Altcoin Season Index :

Source : https://www.blockchaincenter.net/altcoin-season-index/

There is a choice. This choice has been made. More dash for masternode owners, making a bad problem worse. The result is cheap dash that is useless as a store of value. But thats what the network chose. Perhaps there are still so many masternode owners who got their dash extrememly cheap in the beginning that no price wil be low enough for them to be concerned about capital loss on their collateral.

For this choice to be reversed.. masternode owners will have to listen to you, for years of bear market they don't listen why will they now?  Ryan Taylor admitting his huge error? admiting his ignorance of the economics? He won't. I think won't happen. Masternode owners refuse to see what is clear as day to you and I. Cognitive dissonance? Their opinion is that dash has gone down for 'other' reasons. There are a host of 'other' reasons. But eventually. That new technology will lift dash. Dash platform. Nice usernames etc. They won't admit the economics of the block reward hurts dash value. You think masternode owners will realise the real reason, what you and I have been saying all along and change course. Zero chance IMO

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You said it was the bottom, Dash was above 0.005bitcoin when i sold. It was not the bottom. Dash is now 0.0032. I could have half a masternode extra now for every masternode sold then

I don't know why anyone would listen to you. You give worst ever advice

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

In a mined blockchain, there are two ways to acquire a coin:

 • mine it (the "primary" way, straight out of the chain which is constantly issuing new supply)
 • find someone who already mined on and buy it from them (the "secondary" source)

It's conventional to treat these as two "markets" since they have distinct dynamics, methods of acquisition, and sometimes even pricing. We give the name "mining" to the primary market in crypto but effectivelly, all you're doing is "purchasing" the coin straight out of the chain and paying a price that's commensurate with competing bids. The hashrate is there to mediate those competing bids, so it has the same commercial function as an orderbook on an exchange. You add more hashrate = you move your buy order up the ladder.

When a miner "places" hashrate, they're effectively placing a buy order in the primary market. When they sell on an exchange they're placing a "sell order" in the secondary market. But (most of) the fiat they draw from that sell order just goes straight back into the chain in the form of placing more bids for the new supply (that's by definition what "mining" is). So there's no NET sell pressure. The miner is serving as a broker for secondary buyers and making sure that their demand ends up being transmitted from the secondary market to the primary market, making a small profit as they go.

Contrast that with masternode rewards. Here the "transmission" is broken because while masternodes are "brokers" just as miners are, the secondary market demand does not get transmitted back into the chain. Masternodes do not have to "buy" their coin in the Dash primary market, they get it for free. The fiat that masternode reward sales draw from the secondary market therefore leaves the Dash ecosystem entirely. That's why I say above that sell pressure from masternode rewards is "unmitigated".

That's the source of our "leaky marketcap" and we need to plug it.

Qwizzie's point about "hashrate is doing just fine" is irrelevant. Whatever our hashrate is, it's only applied to half the supply. The other half is "shielded" from that competitive demand. We could have more hashrate than bitcoin for that matter but as long as half the supply keeps emerging at zero difficulty it will still have the same effect on marketcap.

Something tells me that it is toknormal that is selling his masternode rewards at first opportunity. Simply because he was ill prepared for this long and brutal bear market and because
his country's tax policy forces him to do that with his own masternode. The more smart masternode operators who are not restricted by such a hostile crypto tax policy have reserves and can therefore save their masternode rewards, to sell during a bull market. And then you have those masternode operators that do all the above, and also increase their crypto revenue by setting up more masternodes during a bear market.

It is sad to see the same ramblings from toknormal about the already approved and active blockreward reallocation change still occurring, i guess dumping those ramblings throughout most
of 2020 in this forum was not enough, so the ramblings continue in 2021.

Good thing we have the ignore button, i just wish people would stop feeding toknormal so much in this forum.

AzzAz : sold most of his Dash during last bull market and moved on to other coins (BTC & ETH)
Afbitcoins : sold most of his Dash during this bear market, when Dash price was really low
toknormal : ramblings about the blockreward reallocation change for many many many months now, most likely sells his Dash at first opportunity (first big pump) as he posted in the past

None of these people give me the feeling that they are longterm in Dash anymore. Why should we care about posts from people that already sold most of their Dash or stated to do so with first major pomp and just fill their time waiting for that major pump with ramblings about the blockreward reallocation change ?

Selfnote : if i ever plan to sell all my Dash or most of my Dash, please do not sink so low by spreading FUD on the Dash forums like some of the above people have been doing.

With regard to miners :


Source : https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/dash-hashrate.html#1y

Dash mining hashrate is doing just fine. The blockreward reallocation change (9% of the miners rewards moving towards masternodes in a time period of 4.5 years) has zero effect so far on the hashrate, as predicted by so many people. I doubt the next planned blockreward reallocation (end of February 2021) will change that, or the reallocations that follow after that (every 3 months).
Why miners still mine is simple, because they can. They could in previous Dash bear markets and they can in this one. Nothing more to say about that.

Since the hashrate does not seem effected by the blockreward reallocation change, more desperate-sounding assumptions have been emerging and are presented as facts by toknormal & afbitcoins. Sad times really when people sink this low, in order to try to still prove their pointless points.

It must be frustrating for them to see none of their 'Dash is doomed, miners will abandon Dash' prediction posts come true.

I am puzzled by this statement, care to explain how exactly miners are buying DASH?  Miners sell DASH, they don't buy it.



Also, you say the masternode owners represent unmitigated selling pressure, but this is false as was demonstrated in prior bull markets.  The Mnode opers have the flexibility to sell almost all their rewards or HODL almost all their rewards, it depends entirely on the sentiment of the community (greed and fear).  As such, turning the sentiment around can have a massive impact on price in the upward direction as the Mnode opers do not have to sell their coins.  We just have to make them get greedy again somehow.

I'm still puzzled by DASH miners. Who mines it? Must be somebody that has free energy and free equipment. And nothing else to do.
Is here at this forum any DASH miner? Hello?

We don't have any choice IMO. We need to get our mining deficit restored ASAP otherwise we'll keep plummeting down the rankings.

When Ryan presented his theory that throttling supply to miners would mean less sell pressure, he missed out a vital dimension which is what miners DO with the fiat they draw from markets. They use it "buy" coins from the new supply thereby creating competition for that supply. Nothing to do with securing the chain, it's implementing scarcity that costs the money. They're selling into the secondary market to be able to buy into the primary market. Ergo very little NET selling pressure. The whole operation makes a small profit if they're lucky.

Masternodes on the other hand create unmittigated selling pressure, because if any MN reward is dumped on markets, the fiat coming the other way does not get re-invested in the chain. We are therefore "spending" pure marketcap on masternode revenues because there's no economic activity associated with it. No synthetic scarcity is created, no blockchain costs covered, no work is done and no monetary velocity is gained in proportion to increasing MN profits.

Why do you think we're struggling to even keep up with Doge in ranking Because we have a mining deficit compared to ALL these coins above us  - Dogue, Monero, the bitcoin forks, Litecoin - all of them. If this doesn't light up people's radars that something is seriously wrong with our protocol reward allocation then they need a shot of adrenalin IMO.

The "locked up in masternodes" idea is good, but the bulk of the coin should be mined first, pass through markets with a cost base that reflects its scarcity and THEN find its way into node collateral. Then a profit element can be fed to the masternode population from a residual component of the supply that corresponds to the optimal profitability balance for maximising capital gain (as determined along the lines of the analyses above).

Excellent post toknormal. I'm not holding my breath for that allocation to go anywhere near the sweet spot though. It just won't. zero chance.
IF if did, I'd reinvest back into dash

Why are fees on Bitcoin and Ethereum often so high? | How Dash Fixed It,  Amanda B Johnson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Uux9RUtw0

I will listen to your opinion, thank you. In addition, I myself have reminded about the price 100 times here
0.000024 BTC
I will look at the trend and wait for a reversal. Now we are flying to the propost, the Mariana Trench.
In the meantime, I'm flying to the moon on Ripple and Tron