Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 50. (Read 9723748 times)

Its because these kind of projects/coins are getting less and less popular.
Check Bitcoin Cash, SV and Litecoin, Monero.  All dropping and dropping.

Its defi's time.  Dash and possibly all those others will be out of the top 100 by end of the year

Deathly silence.
Cadaverous odor is heard in the top 50, where DASH entered yesterday.
Stability like a graveyard.
qwizzie huddled under the plinth, I'm afraid.
Rightly afraid, evil investors will first shoot you in the knees, then in the head

Like I say. We already have the scenario. (They also didn't sign up for an asset that they thought would be uncompetitive). If masternodes are profitable at any price then there will be takers at any price because none of the other POW coins in our league are even rewarded yet they all have fairly healthy networks.


First of all, the most specific question here is, is Dash's primary (new) supply better spent on:

 • attracting competition for that supply or
 • giveaways to masternodes

The concept of "hashrate" is deceptive because it makes people think it's about wasting energy, but they're missing the economic role it plays which is to mediate competition for the supply. By spending less on "hashrate" we're not saving money, we're just reducing the size of our primary market. I re-emphasis, we MUST see this in terms of primary and secondary markets. If we don't take this into account we'll miss the big picture and sink to the bottom of the rankings just because we were so blind that we didn't realise mining was a market.

Moving now to the broader aspect of your question...


...as I explained in an earlier post, there are generally only 3 approaches at the moment to store value in a crypto:

1. mining (= a trustless market for the primary supply)
2. on-chain services (the "De-Fi" model which consumes tokens and burns them to pay for on-chain computing services)
3. monetary velocity (your coin has such a high circulation for making payments that that alone sustains demand+price)

The "new chains" can get away with POS because that supply growth is needed to fuel all the on-chain Dapps that are growing on their platforms. They also support securitisation models (tokens on top of tokens) which in themselves can consume tokens or create monetary velocity. But Dash is not going the De-Fi route. It's going to have OFF-CHAIN Daps. We don't even have high fees like bitcoin does to sustain demand - our fees are specifically promoted as being LOW, so we can't rely on bitcoin's model of moving from mining to a fee-only model as emission dwindles.

Monetary velocity is also a dead-end because we are not a stable coin. Stable coins are going to be where all the day to day transacting gets done in terms of paying for coffees etc.

So Dash's natural market is still where it always was - a more versatile version of bitcoin. A highly mined store-of-value that's easy to move around and cheap to transact in where it's possible (unlike bitcoin) to earn a trustless dividend by running a masternode. There is nobody else in that space.

But the whole point of decoupling the mining and service protocols in Dash was so that we didn't have to compromise mining (or even a slow blocktime) to support a high level of services. We could have our cake (mining) and eat it (services). But if the protocol doesn't offer a very high mining contingent then that advantage is lost. I mean  - what do we have to lose ? The budget is just being thrown away at the moment. It's ok for attracting masternode growth but once they reach equilibrium nodecount then it's simply wasted. It has the opposite effect.

Ok, well, first, thank you for the change in tone. I think your message comes across a lot clearer once the noise is removed.

I'm still skeptical that the current masternode owners would want to host masternodes at such a reduced reward in DASH. So there's risk that many would dump simply because this is not what they originally signed up for. I would entertain the thought of going as low as 30/70 for the reward ratio and then see how the network reacts before re-evaluating to see if any further adjustment were needed.

I understand what you say about mining and I'm aware of a couple of studies which seem to indicate that mining does have an upward pressure on price. But if it's such a great idea, why aren't any of the newer blockchains choosing POW? Is there only so much room for POW chains? Or are there actually better ways for a blockchain to work now. Mining still seems like busy work to me to help spur adoption for Bitcoin when no one really understood its value. Once people get onboard and discover the power it offers, perhaps mining fades in its importance.

And then there's Dash Platform which could completely change the economics of DASH. If it adds enough utility and attracts enough new users, it could make the reward ratio irrelevant as demand outstrips supply anyway.

Anyways I think your biggest problem is that you need to get the support of the majority of masternode owners for this. The only 2 here that have been vocal might not even have masternodes to vote with anymore.

I dont think its just DASH.

All the old store of value coins are losing popularity.

Its defi's turn now to make people some money. 

These old coins and masternode projects are slowly fading into insignificance

None of them would if they had any sense. Clearly that's the whole point of making this argument - that it's in their interests to support this. You're over-focused on the reward. Masternodes are far more exposed to capital losses (or opportunity costs through diminishing competitivity) than they are to small changes in reward because they have 1000 Dash at stake.

What would be the difference ? We'd be going from 1.3 Dash per week (45% reward share) to around 8% (0.23 Dash per week). So you'd be making 1 Dash per month for running a node.

Now that is far more realistic at high valuations. It's also far more realistic given the operating costs that nodes incur. It also highly incentivises the investment in nodes because the operating profit margin of a masternode (unlike with BTC/LTC or even Dash miners) increases with increasing Dash price, but the real objective is not increased reward anyway. It's capital gain of the holding (and therefore EVERY Dash holding, not just masternodes).

At the moment, everybody is paying for masternode rewards. Not only masternodes themselves (through relative capital loss compared to fully mined coins) but also other holders who don't receive any reward. If you really think all this is worth it just to sustain the illusion of a numerically consistent but otherwise diminishing reward, then I don't think you understand your own investment well enough.

Sigh... at least you acknowledged my first point I guess. But you didn't refute it, you distract us with using the bear market as an excuse for your proposed experiment. A market where the majority of cryptos, not just DASH suffered at least 95% fall from their ATH. And people on here actually call this a discussion or debate? You immediately resort to insults.

Ok, let me state it more plainly then. If you changed the reward ratio from 60/40 to 20/80 (or 8/92 - the sweet spot?), which masternode owners do you suppose would not dump their coins within the hour of finding out? What would that massive influx of supply do to the price?

I cut the rest of your response because it added nothing new to the discussion. It's almost as if you had written it before I posted, just waiting to copy and paste it as a reply...

Individual decisions may be.

But the aggregate performance of the marketcap in relation to other mined coins is characterised by the dynamics described above. Overpaying for a masternode network that costs peanuts to run.

This is completely false and shows just how out of touch with the market you really are.  Absolutely no one and I mean no one is making decisions on buying a coin based on how it is emitted, eg POW, POW hybrid, POS.  Decisions are being made based on emotions "feel", S2F, perceptions of the coin, some fundamentals, TA, but not how much of the supply is mined and minted.  You are just trying to fill your narrative with make-believe in the hope others will buy it and the reason you post so much is because you know what I am saying is true, so you are trying to bend the will of readers to the bearish case so as to sell the coin and prove you right.  It is a bit sick that you should try so hard to FUD this coin just for your own satisfaction?  Or do you also have a large short position on this coin?  What is your motivation for spewing this FUD on a daily basis?

Lol !   What do you think they've been doing for the last 3 years ?

Masternode reward has ranged from $2000 per week to $50 over the last 3 years - a range of 6000% from lowest to highest - and you're quaking in your boots at making a 30% protocol share revision that would radically address our bleeding marketcap ? Your logic defies understanding. Stop being obsessed with masternodes - this coin can go to zero with a full compliment of 5000 nodes no problem at all.

Think of miners and masternodes as 2 market stalls selling coins to the public. If one stall can afford to continuously undercut the other all the way to zero and still be at a profit what do you think is going to happen ? They'll simply erode the price chronically. Swilling around the bottom of the barrel with Sushiswap.
How difficult can this be to understand ?

On the other hand (OTOH) what will be the INSTANTANEOUS effect of increasing the mining share back to 80% as described in this post ? A doubling of our mining competitively for a start attracting "primary buyers" away from other coins and towards us. We know this because even if it isn't promoted, much mining is simply algo-driven and we'd be doubling the reward for hashrate instead of giving it away for free to nodes. Remember that mining is a market.

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase competition for the Dash primary supply

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Invoke a speculative pricing in of the future value of the new supply

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase the dollar value of masternode rewards

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Increase demand for masternodes

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Start to make us competitive again

 • What effect would that have ?
 • Throw the chornic marketcap erosion we've experienced over the last 3 years into reverse and stabilise our store-of-value offering

We need to break the viscous circle that non-performing masternode rewards are having. People are obsessed with the protocol share and this 45%. Forget it. It's meaningless. The market decides what the reward is. We need to give the market what it wants, not the masternodes what they think they want.

Yes, I also remember lots of changing the argument, distractions, character attacking and really just an overall sentiment of negativity. Sometimes I guess I get caught up in emotions too and talk back.

But in any event, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you missed anything I wrote.

Let me try to quickly summarize some of my past thoughts on toknormal's theory and even some of the possible solutions I discussed.

1- I agree there is an issue with the reward allocation but toknormal not only overstates it, the solution he provides would absolutely destroy DASH's price, as masternodes would sell faster than the market can absorb the sudden new supply
2- The reward reallocation proposal was bad because masternodes essentially voted themselves a higher reward
3- This higher reward is almost negligible. So is the lower reward the miner's will receive.
4- DASH's price performance is not proof that toknormal's theory is correct. It's circumstantial at best.  
5- DASH entered the last bull market as the new coin with no previous ATH's to break. Kind of like LINK, DOT, ATOM and several other DEFI coins this time
6- DASH's chart this time where it goes thru its first bear market vs BTC looks eerily similar to LTC's chart last time where LTC went thru its first bear market vs BTC
7- toknormal insists that the run up in DASH's price during the last bull run was because people were rushing to acquire masternodes. The masternode count vs the free DASH not tied up in masternodes is currently at a very similar ratio as it was before the start of last bull run.
8- The problem with DASH's masternode reward isn't so much that it's too high. I've maintained it's too centralized. It's too expensive for new investors to get one. Implementing shared masternodes (10 shares of 100 DASH or 5 shares of 200 DASH) would be a way to decentralize distribution further and share this reward across more investors
9- Another possible solution is to lower the collateral as Duffield actually proposed once DASH gets to $100.
10- toknormal's solution could possibly work if it was gradually phased in over time as the DASH collateral was likewise gradually reduced over time. In fact toknormal seemed to be ok with this compromise for a short time before suddenly changing his mind without much explanation.

I'm sure I missed stuff but that's more or less what I remember at the moment.


So, what assumption are you assuming I made about you? I simply stated your posts are negative and overly focused on the price. At least that's how they come across to me.

----

And on a different topic...

DASH is currently running out of room in a descending wedge (forming resistance Nov 27 and again every day since Jan 9) which appears to me will force a bit of a large move for DASH either up or down in the next day or 2. Possibly as high as 0.0047 BTC if it breaks to the upside which appears more likely to me...

Also, StakeHound is currently onboarding people who want to exchange some DASH for stDASH (staked DASH, an ERC20 token wrapper for DASH). KYC required, check out https://stakehound.com/ if interested and https://onboarding.stakehound.com/#/register to sign up.

Hahah , EVERY assumption you made ( regarding me ) is - WRONG. That makes me thinking... must be right the rest...

Well aren't you the oracle of good advice? Thanks so much for those useful pearls of wisdom.


Yet the market seems to keep agreeing with that opinon


I'll save you the need for speculating on what emotions there were based on price. It started when Ryan opened the pandoras' box of changing block reward.


You seem very fixated on emotions. I hope you have yours under control. I am still positive about all dash feature except the block reward, which is killing such a promising project.


How would you improve it?

p.s I don't remember any real debate to toknormals arguments. What I remember is lots of changing the argument, distractions moving goalposts, attacking character etc

Yes, I agree, you must have missed those. I started debating with you on this back as far as September if not earlier. It became clear to me by November or so (yeah I know, I'm slow) that you are largely uninterested in debate. You are here to preach.


Yes, many of my posts have largely involved my prediction that altseason is coming (even when DASH was $60 and people were here shedding their tears). And I shared various reasons why I believe that by using mostly DASH as an example. You have unfortunately taken that as my main counterargument against your theory when I had already largely moved on. Yes, I still reply to you, but mostly to correct you on blatant inaccuracies.

It seems you think everything posted here needs to be about you. I'm pretty sure I'm allowed to post any topic related to DASH. Btw, I don't think I've ever presented myself as a DASH-maximalist. That seems a little emotional, don't you think? You know, don't get so attached to any one coin. Try to diversify. Own some BTC, ETH, DOT, LTC, etc., maybe gold, and even some fiat so you can always at least pay the bills.

I think I must have missed those because I certainly wasn't ignoring any "counter arguments". The only counter arguments I've ever seen is what qwizzie posted months ago which was that throttling traffic to order books from miners was a viable basis to boost Dash's store of value competitively and that our early position on the emission curve will be compensated for by increased masternode take-up driven by increased reward.

But these two assertions have been shown to be flawed because, in the case of the former:

 • it's too myopic. It's shown above that mining reward is a zero-sum game. Throttling supply to miners will NOT raise price, in fact it has the opposite impact because the aggregate effect is to lower competition for the primary supply and

and in the case of the latter...

 • the analysis was done in Dash whereas it should have been done in dollars to take into account the impact the market can have on repricing the masternode rewards

What you presented wasn't "counter arguments" but "#pumpIsComing" mantras which we all know. It doesn't affect Dash's competivity at all since "alt-season" applies to all alts, not just Dash so your "counter arguments" are irrelevant. This discussion is about what makes Dash MORE competitive than other coins, not what surf-waves are coming for the crypto market as a whole.

It's you that has largely ignored the arguments I and others have presented in the past. I'm quite done arguing about your theory when all you do is regurgitate the same thing, largely ignoring any counterargument. If you really want to continue a real debate then please go back and address many of the points I've already brought up.

Now please stop pretending that I'm now somehow continuing to argue with your theory when I state that I believe altseason is just around the corner.

And yes, it's called altseason not just DASH season.

That's not very convincing. If I were to sum up your argument it's "stop being emotional, Dash will pump when pump season comes".

That's it.

You've been presented with reasoned argument, quantified models (which take no small amount of work to produce), citations of economic theory that endorse the observations were seeing and ON TOP of all that, you've seen Dash's competitive performance be consistent with these arguments.

Yet you can't address once single aspect of these analyses with anything other than "it's just your opinion" or ""we're not at pump season yet". May I remind you that when if/altcoin season comes, Dash is not alone in the race. There are plenty of other candidates with upside on offer - in fact more than ever before - and if it's judged that fully mined coins are more investable than those where half the supply is "donated" to large holders (as it seems to have been up til now) then we might get very little to nothing out of "alt season".

I don't think you or anyone else in the community is in any position to dismiss this prospect with hopium-based trend theory.

Don't get me wrong, it's not bad to have emotions. But emotions will more often than not lead you to bad financial decisions.

Unless you, afbit and tok are the 3 Wise Men, your shared opinion is just that, an opinion.

The reason I find the 3 of your responses here so emotional is that I could probably chart your negative (and positive or no) posts to the price of DASH. When DASH was $120+ it was eerily quiet in here... when DASH dipped below $110, panic troll posts started to appear and within the hour of DASH falling below $100, toknormal revisited after a 2 week hiatus. Then you guys quickly piled on with the same negative rant.

You supported DASH with positive posts so faithfully years ago when the price looked better by the day and now that you deem it to be in freefall you only post negative things about DASH. That seems emotional to me. Price is dictating your mood. Of course you say you have reasons. But that's been discussed ad nauseum now. Nothing substantially has changed with DASH's economic model since masternodes were introduced. So either the problem has always existed and no one was smart enough last bull run or you are exaggerating the significance of the reward change. Generally speaking I don't think people are smart enough when it comes to money. They let their emotions drive their decisions (hidden behind "reasons"). Selling low and buying high is an emotional outcome.

Is DASH's economic model perfect? Nope, never said that. Can it be improved? Perhaps, but not by berating people that disagree with you.


Did you sell at those times? If you sold at 0.005 BTC it seems that you did not. But I do agree that the masternodes voting themselves a higher reward is a bad look and not worth it especially when it amounts to 0.04 DASH or something so negligible.


Now that one makes more sense in when you actually did sell. XMR sits on it's important support and looks likely that it won't fall below it. However, I invite you to look more closely at the LTC/BTC chart and see how LTC breached a very important support in it's first bear market vs BTC. Many thought it was to be left for dead too. Then within a week or so, LTC went up 7x and was only down 50% from its ATH vs USD. Funnily enough if DASH does something similar in its first bear market against BTC, it will also be at about 50% of its ATH vs USD.

Note that the alt season has not started yet. Only minor rumblings... last time BTC went about 15% above its previous ATH before diving 30%. On the recovery alt season started. This time BTC went over 100% over its previous ATH to about $41K and it just recently touched about $28K (30% down). Seems some alts are recovering faster than BTC now. Are we only weeks from altseason?


Yeah, I think that's inevitable. If DASH had fallen off page 1 of CMC or even out of the top 50 you would have a stronger case. But the fact that it's still in the 30's despite CMC now double counting BTC (by including WBTC) and there being about 5 stablecoins ahead of DASH means that DASH is still a top altcoin. It's not like it fell to $6 like someone else predicted.

I seem emotional? Well I admit annoyance when qwizzie starts posting shit about me! Trying to create an impression of me to discredit. That is why I describe him as low.  

However that is nothing to do with making emotional trading decisions as you seem to imply. I've been round the block a few times, ridden a few speculative bubbles. I don't regard my desicion to sell as emotional in the slightest. I'll give you a heads up, not all coins maintain their peaks, some keep heading down the ranking. Will Dash be one of those? Perhaps. IMO it is a risky investment, might work out, but is risky.

My decision to sell dash was based on two main factors.
1) the reward allocation and in particular Ryan's proposal that was accepted by the network to give more of the dash supply for masternodes and less for miners making bad economics worse. The vote looks bad and is bad..
2) an important support line was breached. The technical analysis looked aweful and to me only reinforced my suspicions about point 1). I would have preferred dash to bounce from that support, bounce hard and give me a chance to get out higher but it is what it is.    

 
Heres the support line if you are interested

*chart


You think dash will hit 0.01btc this year??

I'm not sure why you pick 0.01 which seems a bit arbitrary. That would mean dash breaking out of its multi year bear channel.

*chart

Yes of course that is possible. I dont yet see compelling evidence it will happen but you never know. That channel can't last forever. I'll probably keep an eye on dash to see how it does. In particular if dash reverses course on the block allocation i will be interested in that. Without that  I don't see why dash should be one of the top altcoins when altcoin season is in full force. The problem is the block reward allocation.

DASH looks very silent on the market with the monthly chart and I see it as a positive things for DASH in this quarter of 2021. In 2019 and 2020, the altcoin season occurred in the first or second quarters. How about this year?

In the market where many altcoins try to rise again and climb and reclaim to their all time highs or get new ones, DASH with the recent performance will have its turn soon. A matter of time before a storm.

Today the index is 69 that is not very far from 75. Interesting moment for altcoin season. We might see it next weeks.