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Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 5187. (Read 9723733 times)

sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250

I don't see why both things can't coexist.

Suppose 1 million people use the darksend feature and only two people have it disabled.
I don't get how the million people will have LESS privacy if a few people walk around "naked".
Ofcourse the "naked" guys will not associate with the dark ones, and they will mutually shun each other. Naturally, but there is truly no reason why everybody should be forced to wear clothes.

If I understood the masternode system correctly, it is an additional infrastructure put on top of a normal BTC kind transaction system.

Use a different crypto? What if only darkcoin provides the price stability I am looking for? What if I like darkcoin simply for the reason that it has a stable price development?


Then you have free privacy, which you did not ask for but also did not pay for. You have not been disadvantaged. Strip naked at home: Buy litecoin.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
What if I want to start a donation address and I like to show the amount of recieved donations to everybody?

Then use a different crypto. Darkcoin wasn't invented to offer transparency it was invented to offer opacity.

What if I want to keep my income private ? Then our choices conflict. They can only be resolved by a diversity of actual crypto networks which is exactly what we do have.


I don't see why both things can't coexist.

Suppose 1 million people use the darksend feature and only two people have it disabled.
I don't get how the million people will have LESS privacy if a few people walk around "naked".
Ofcourse the "naked" guys will not associate with the dark ones, and they will mutually shun each other. Naturally, but there is truly no reason why everybody should be forced to wear clothes.

If I understood the masternode system correctly, it is an additional infrastructure put on top of a normal BTC kind transaction system.

Use a different crypto? What if only darkcoin provides the price stability I am looking for? What if I like darkcoin simply for the reason that it has a stable price development?

hero member
Activity: 574
Merit: 500
Evan was on IRC earlier. He's pushed out an alert to all older versions telling them to update for the fork, and will update this thread title to mention the need to update.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
For me, Darksend being turned on all the time is probably a good thing. Privacy should be automatic.  The sooner this happens, the better. I would hate to see Dark Wallet implement distributed nodes before Darksend is ready.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
01100100 01100001 01110011 01101000
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.

No it isn't. In this sector, choice is BAD, coercion is good.

The choice you have is to use another network. The whole point of privacy would be lost if it was optional. That's the huge advantage DRK has over anything else.

What's the point of using the Darkcoin network to keep your finances private if every bit of income you receive is transparent to all and sundry ?

If somebody **chooses** to use the DRK network because they wanted totally financial privacy, then that choice can only be done justice to by hiding their income as well as their expenditure.


+1
And I would not use the word "coercion" because it's simply one of the main features of the coin, an innovation.

Coercion + closed source will not bode well for darkcoin.
So I hope they won't dare to release an enforced darksend version while STILL keeping the source closed, because that would basically cause the coins value to drop like a stone. (IMHO)

Then I would really feel like having bought an apple product.... making me feel that "jail is cool"  Angry

So, again, is this official that the dark send feature will be mandatory in the future?


I repeat myself, DarkSend is a feature. If you chose to buy a TV that integrates some new technologies do you consider this as a form of coercion ?
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
What if I want to start a donation address and I like to show the amount of recieved donations to everybody?

Then use a different crypto. Darkcoin wasn't invented to offer transparency it was invented to offer opacity.

What if I want to keep my income private ? Then our choices conflict. They can only be resolved by a diversity of actual crypto networks which is exactly what we do have.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
Your suggestion is tantamount to forcing people to be smart... I don't have to explain my stance on that. ;-)

By selling iMacs, Apple are not *forcing* people to use an "all in one" computer. They are a contributing one option in a wider marketplace.

By offering a comprehesively anonymous network, DRK is not *forcing* anyone to use anonymous transactions. Likeways, they are offering *one* distinct type of product in a diverse marketplace.

Those arguments would only apply if DRK was the only crypto around. It isn't so they can't be accused of not offering choice when in fact that's exactly what they are doing within the wider marketplace.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.
No it isn't. In this sector, choice is BAD, coercion is good.

The choice you have is to use another network. The whole point of privacy would be lost if it was optional. That's the huge advantage DRK has over anything else.

What's the point of using the Darkcoin network to keep your finances private if every bit of income you receive is transparent to all and sundry ?

If somebody **chooses** to use the DRK network because they wanted totally financial privacy, then that choice can only be done justice to by hiding their income as well as their expenditure.
Your suggestion is tantamount to forcing people to be smart... I don't have to explain my stance on that. ;-)

Exactly. That's like government declaring war on drugs, or breaching into our privacy for our own good.
"We have to declare those plants illegal and put everyone in prison, because smoking it might cause health problems, so we'd rather cause you healthproblems DIRECTLY by putting you in prison and ruin you financially."  Grin  /sarc

I really don't need anyone to force me to do something, even if he thinks that it is the best for everybody.

Face it, when you are being forced to do something, you can rest assured that you will recieve a crappy service in return.

Coercion should never be necessary. This is a mindtrick to make you comply with things you would NEVER AGREE WITH voluntarily (like paying Taxes).

Just let people use Darkcoin the way they see fit.

OFCOURSE most people will use the dark send feature. I would. Probably... not with all my wallets though...
What if I want to start a donation address and I like to show the amount of recieved donations to everybody?
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.

No it isn't. In this sector, choice is BAD, coercion is good.

The choice you have is to use another network. The whole point of privacy would be lost if it was optional. That's the huge advantage DRK has over anything else.

What's the point of using the Darkcoin network to keep your finances private if every bit of income you receive is transparent to all and sundry ?

If somebody **chooses** to use the DRK network because they wanted totally financial privacy, then that choice can only be done justice to by hiding their income as well as their expenditure.


+1
And I would not use the word "coercion" because it's simply one of the main features of the coin, an innovation.

Coercion + closed source will not bode well for darkcoin.
So I hope they won't dare to release an enforced darksend version while STILL keeping the source closed, because that would basically cause the coins value to drop like a stone. (IMHO)

Then I would really feel like having bought an apple product.... making me feel that "jail is cool"  Angry

So, again, is this official that the dark send feature will be mandatory in the future?
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
If BTC is improved upon significantly enough, the brand name won't save it.

Yes it will IMO, because we're talking about *money* not technological advantage.

Those two things are about as unrelated as "gold as money" and "gold as tooth fillings".

What people grossly underestimate when it comes to things such as money and value is that precedent is everything and technology is nothing. The "low tech" solution starts to be very attractive once it gains acceptance because as far as a store of value is concerned nobody gives a toss about 'functionality' or technical properties - they're not in the market for any of those things.

That's why I made those points about Gox, malleability and ETF's. Bitcoin is advancing in these areas where nobody else is. Nobody else has gone from 'hero' status to 'pauper' and returned again in such a public way as Bitcoin has and nobody will again.

Why do you think that banks and insurance companies were all founded more than a century ago ? Because when it comes to their money, people only care about how long something has lasted. Thats their only indication as to how long it might last into the future, nothing to do with "algos".
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.
No it isn't. In this sector, choice is BAD, coercion is good.

The choice you have is to use another network. The whole point of privacy would be lost if it was optional. That's the huge advantage DRK has over anything else.

What's the point of using the Darkcoin network to keep your finances private if every bit of income you receive is transparent to all and sundry ?

If somebody **chooses** to use the DRK network because they wanted totally financial privacy, then that choice can only be done justice to by hiding their income as well as their expenditure.
Your suggestion is tantamount to forcing people to be smart... I don't have to explain my stance on that. ;-)
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
01100100 01100001 01110011 01101000
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.

No it isn't. In this sector, choice is BAD, coercion is good.

The choice you have is to use another network. The whole point of privacy would be lost if it was optional. That's the huge advantage DRK has over anything else.

What's the point of using the Darkcoin network to keep your finances private if every bit of income you receive is transparent to all and sundry ?

If somebody **chooses** to use the DRK network because they wanted totally financial privacy, then that choice can only be done justice to by hiding their income as well as their expenditure.


+1
And I would not use the word "coercion" because it's simply one of the main features of the coin, an innovation.
legendary
Activity: 1484
Merit: 1007
spreadcoin.info
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.
I just noticed...

Coercion, slight change, CoerCoin!

The name for government-run crypto of the future...

The Book of Revelation just got real...

Coercoin, this is genious. But, Let's not give the central scrutinizers of the gubbermint any more ideas!!!

Although since we all know how orwellian the government is when it comes to naming things, they would probably call it FreedomCoin!

You know, like as in : "I am from the government, and I am here to HELP!"

 Grin

hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
It would be a big mistake to underestimate Taaki based on the fact that the client is still Alpha. It will come out of Alpha at some point.
I agree with this point. DRK is Alpha as well... Arguing against this argues against what we already know is true. No matter the topic, that's fail.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
Choice is always good. Coercion is always bad.
I just noticed...

Coercion, slight change, CoerCoin!

The name for government-run crypto of the future...

The Book of Revelation just got real...
sr. member
Activity: 294
Merit: 250
FYI :

http://drk.poolhash.org/subver.html will not list some clients with following  sub version.

 * 0.9.2.*
 * 0.9.4.*
 * 0.9.5.*
 
 * 0.10.6.*
 * 0.10.8.*


* 163 client removed from list.
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
www.OroCoin.co
BTC will be very hard to replace, but DRK already has the fundamentals that BTC lacks. I'm not saying DRK will be the replacement. I'm just pointing out the inevitability of antiquated technology to be replaced by better stuff. I stopped using my 1core 32bit AMD chip about 6 years ago...

I think you're being highly selective in deciding what you regard as being "fundamentals".

DRK has certainly improved on Bitcoin in several ways - algo efficiency, anonymity etc - but those are technical properties, not necessarily "fundamentals" that impact on it's status as a reserve currency.

Bitcoin has been superseded technically by almost all new altcions, but they have never put a dent in its value - not even litecoin did. So technical superiority isn't "it".

In fact, your computer hardware example actually undermines your own case because if you look back at the evolution of the digital industry, hardware technology hasn't been one of the "fundamentals" while those areas that have been have persistent against a wave of "improvements" on their original design:

 - the Unix operating system: 41 years old, now underpins all new Apple desktop hardware, not exactly considered "antiquated"
 - The ASCII and Unicode character codings for information interchange, 50 and 27 years old respectively
 - SQL, Structured Query Language for database access, 44 years old and only getting more widespread adoption with every year
 - TCP/IP that underpins the internet: 40 years old
 - all the high level internet protocols and markup languages - http, smtp, html etc 24 years old and getting more widespread adoption with every year

What these show is that the "true" fundamentals do not get superseded. They persist and consolidate with time and adoption.

If Bitcoin is still around in 20 years you can bet your bottom dollar that it's not going to get removed from "reserve currency" status just because its algo is outdated. See the things I mentioned in my last post - those are the real "fundamentals", not technical characteristics.
I was hoping someone would be smart enough to have this conversation.

Several of your points are only half-truths.

ASCII and Unicode are standardizations of a concept. Inches and Centimeters still exist. The objects they are used to measure... You get the point.

What came before TCP/IP? Remember token ring? Where's that? CAT5 or RG[wahtever] coax? Where was fiber 40 years ago? I can think of AT LEAST a half-dozen network protocols that were the Bee's Knees at the time, but anyone under the age of 40 would have no idea what I'm talking about... History did not begin the day you were born, and most people seem to think it did...

Do you so easily forget Web 2.0? Where was CSS in 1994? It was improved upon. And the so-called standard of http... Lets not have that argument...

The comparison of apples with oranges is missing the point. The bottom line is that things are improved upon and don't always fit where they currently are once the new things come along.

Some reach a point where there simply isn't a way to improve them, they've been perfected. Cryptocurrency is not one of these things. BTC was the FIRST. I don't have my TRS80 anymore. Nor any 5.25in floppy disks or drives. I also do not have a 2400baud modem hanging around, either.

One of the fundamentals of BTC is it's current penetration. One can make the same argument about paper dollars. Everyone uses it and doesn't know well enough to stop for their own good.

If improved upon significantly enough, BTC will be too antiquated to use. Is that a property that can occur with crypto? Is it possible that guv could create it's own ripple or nxt and force everyone to use it under pain of incarceration?

My suggestion is that we stand at the beginning, not the end, or even in the middle. If you would have told me 20 years ago that I'd be using a cable modem pushing 90mbps on a global network that's orders of magnitude faster, I would have laughed in your face. Waxing my 2400baud external modem certainly didn't achieve that. Yup, it still uses TCP/IP. But there are a myraid of things that have fallen to the wayside in that wake. You nor I had the capacity to predict which they would be.

If BTC is improved upon significantly enough, the brand name won't save it. That's really all it's got going for it at this point: Massive brand recognition and acceptance. Is that fundamental enough? It wasn't for Atari or Commodore... Satoshi called it an experiment. A very damn well thought out experiment. But there is still room for improvement. Enough to antiquate it? I dare you to suggest that your crystal ball is that good.

To further underscore the matter: Why do you buy BitCoin?

For me, the answer is "Because that's how I get DRK."

BTC is, for me, a Dump coin that I use to buy DRK. I'm not the only one. It's one thing to say that about a hyped shitcoin... But I'm saying that about BTC. That which you say is impossible is in fact inevitable, and has already begun...
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
What's more ridiculous are the people that think darkcoin is somehow so special it deserves to be on top. Darksend is great and you're right its filling a role. But there are a number of other coins that have anonymous transactions in testing or in the works. What will make or break darkcoin is the people using it, just like the users who made litecoin.

I believe whole heartedly in darkcoin, but its naive to think it should be number 2 simply because it exists.

EDIT: Full disclosure I own a good amount of DRK and LTC.

Darkcoin is aiming for the private/anonymous market segment which is a new market segment. If 10% of the transparent market opts for private/anonymous transactions, that's a 850mn market cap right there. Even if DRK has only 40% of the private/anonymous market marketshare, instead of 80-90% today, it will still exceed Litecoins marketcap.

This is not something that will happen overnight of course. It requires actual adoption. And, the way things are going in terms of crypto and taxes and the government mapping all bitcoins to their owners, this adoption could be q4 2014 / 2015 instead of late 2015+.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1049
Isn't dark wallet centralized? If so, this means we shouldn't be worried of them, right? Or will they become decentralized?

The problem of dark wallet is that they need to have a matchmaking node for users to mix their coins and right now this is more centralized than not. Last time I heard, they are moving to a p2p way of doing this, which is the right way to go.

Quote
Darkwallet is never going to be a substitute for a truly dark network for 1 huge - elephant in the room - reason: it's optional.

You might see "hacked" bitcoin clients that integrate it. Like we have 2 wallets (1 x open source wallet without DarkSend and 1 x closed source with DarkSend). It would be a big mistake to underestimate Taaki based on the fact that the client is still Alpha. It will come out of Alpha at some point.

That's why DRK must be able to do things in a superior way + exploit the areas that it can evolve based on a hard fork (where Bitcoin can't advance) + integrate strong IP obfuscation.

Right now we need to

a) Find a way to remove 10 DRK limit but keep a homogeneity in inputs to resist analysis
b) Launder change money because they are linkable and betray the sender during future spends
c) Make the node unaware of what it is transacting
d) Merge strong IP obfuscation / traffic encryption etc
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
What you guys think about getting one of the exchanges to add Darkcoin as a main trading currency. e.g NMC/DRK LTC/DRK CRAPCOINS/DRK and so on..

It will surely be traded a lot that way.. it could help the price, any thoughts?

Top idea.

That would be a huge leap forward for DRk kind. LTC got a lot of traction that way. XPM also had some markets.
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