Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 76. (Read 9723748 times)

Bitcoin price can hit $25K before 2021 if this key support level holds
https://cointelegraph.com/news/bitcoin-price-can-hit-25k-before-2021-if-this-key-support-level-holds

Altcoins are mentioned there as well.

Ah, now I understand how you see it. I didn't realise you were intending for the co-ordination of 'members' to be managed off-chain. Apologies.

So you just mean that the collateral would be held in multiple addresses instead of 1 ?

That would be simpler to do than what I was understanding. To me "trustless" meant that you don't even need any "friends" to collateralise the node. But I can still see issues, mainly that any one of them could just bring down the node by moving their funds, so it depends on human co-operation. But I can still see the perceived benefit. It's not one that I think is a very high priority because it's not a great solution for anything other than "friends". Institutionals couldn't rely on it because they'd need to control the address on behalf of their subscribers. So even if the address was split they'd still be controlling them all.

So I still think all this stuff needs to be in the trusted sector and securitised. I don't think multiple address collateral adds anything to the service potential of the chain other than as you say "friends".

But technically it's a lot simpler than what I thought you originally were advocating.

I used to communicate with a very kind person, humble, idealistic and quite receptive and objective in his judgments, owner of 3 Mnodes and integrated into the DASH structure at a fairly high level.

His frustration, and worst of him, his resignation and skepticism no longer in DASH, but in crypto in general were devastating. I never read the slightest PUBLIC criticism of the system, when in private,he made it clear that his idealism and altruism were tremendously attacked.

With nearly 5 million $ down the toilet, you have little more to do than hope to round them up from this point ... and fly out of this "bad dream." Even in the hypothetical case of recovering 4 figures , I would bet a finger that he is not even close to half to collect and flee like a soul chased by the devil.

They don't realize that decentralizing DASH and recovering a disregarded and thrown-away network effect is their best resource to turn it into a solid value ... or they simply don't have the least motivation to do so after such personal injury to a level that could have changed his life.

Unfortunately, many with more devices than him go free ride after a previous profit taking above and laugh no longer at the damage created with deception by action and/or omission, but at any aspiration of the ecosystem with respect to its initial values ​​... which, in public, of course, they continue to defend - I also know another case in that sense -. The enormous benefit that they have already secured not only does not invite them to optimize that project, but to more theft and more theater.

I still remember price tag on Dash masternode during peak of masternode's hype back in 2017/2018. About 1.5 fuking million of dollars. People that actually bought 1000 coins for that price to set up masternode now probably live under a bridge 

Thanks for the reply but you quoted me as saying something toknormal actually posted... anyways I fixed it for you above...

I don't think anything I laid out for a trustless shared masternode would be overly complex to implement. I also don't see why there would be any need to lock in collateral or any need for a waiting queue. There is no need to move in and out collateral. A shared masternode needs to be registered right from the beginning with the collateral txs (either 1 UTXO of 1000 DASH, 5 UTXOs of 200 DASH each or 10 UTXOs of 100 DASH each). If anything is moved out the masternode no longer meets the collateral requirements and is no longer considered online.

I don't think there should be any attempt to develop a waiting queue for people who only have 100 or 200 DASH. Rather the person with only 100 or 200 DASH should go seek out other people who are willing to complete the collateral requirement together. Then each person with a share can send special transactions which instruct the masternode network that they wish to set up a masternode together and which address each one would get paid at. Then as long as all the requirements are met, the masternode is registered and behaves no differently then any other masternode fully collateralized by a single UTXO.

DCG Head of Marketing
https://blog.dash.org/dcg-head-of-marketing-52fa56619eac

Sure, sure ... you don't have it, we already know. 

The potential DASH buyers you are trying to cheat are the ones who have it ... "coincidentally" with your "usual" confusion always in the same direction: Your pocket.

It is not Dash applying the ROI term, it is countless other websites and articles covering crypto in general that are applying the ROI term to masternodes projects, staking projects and DeFi projects.
Obviously they have a different opinion about the terminology of 'ROI' in the crypto space.

ROI is currently applied to :

* Calculate the price performance of cryptocurrencies over a certain time period
* Calculate the annual percentage increase on the Dash collateral and MN payments / shared masternodes projects / staking projects
* Calculate the return of gain from investment divided by cost of investment in FIAT
* Calculate the percentage return on DeFi projects.

I have no problem with any of that, it just means ROI in crypto has more then one specific definition and is moving beyond the traditional calculation in FIAT.
I suspect the more crypto gets mainstream used, the more it will incorporate and expand some of the more traditional terminology.

LOL on the entire 'ROI' discussion. It's not that important, but the term is obviously incorrectly used for Dash masternodes and staking projects for example.

ROI applies to anyone with 1 Dash or 10 masternodes. It is your return on your invested capital, thus in USD/EURO/... It can be positive or negative. It can be -98% or +10,000%.

Dash masternodes (and staking) coins give you a return or reward which is not ROI. Currently the masternode service reward is around 6%, but that is not 6% ROI. If that were true, Dash would be a scam. Ergo, Dash should never apply the ROI term when it comes to Dash masternodes.

Moving Dash away from your collateral address will result in your masternode going offline as the collateral requirement will no longer be found by the masternode network. The applicable UTXO will be 'spent'. This is verified via the registered 'collateralHash' (TXID hash) parameter used in the DIP003 'protx register_prepare' command. You will need to reinitiate the entire DIP003 registration procedure, even if you move Dash back to the same address to meet the collateral requirement, simply because it will now be sitting at a new UTXO.

Even if you define a new system with multiple UTXO's for the collateral requirement, you will still face the same problem.

Of course you could define a new MN collateral requirement with multiple UTXOs, maybe even define a new type 'shared MN' so we don't affect scalability and network efficiency too much.
The complexity of moving in and out would probably have to be managed off-chain as far as I can tell. Perhaps something with a queueing system (as you say) could be worked out which automatically registers the MN again, but with other stakes waiting in the queue. Also, you need to make a payment to register, so access to the fee address is required. You can just sense there is going to be a whole array of challenges. Perhaps people who really want to join an on-chain shared MN should lock in their collateral for a period of time to eliminate this variability.

Anyhow, the core developers should address the matter of "shared masternodes" after Dash Platform is released, as previously discussed.

DashPay Alpha

Get first-hand experience on the latest DashPay builds. Test it out, give feedback, and connect with the other Alpha users on our development and test networks.

https://www.dash.org/dashpay/
https://www.dash.org/dashpay-alpha-program/

Explain in more detail the can of worms that this opens.

Masternodes do stuff on the blockchain but they aren't the blockchain. Currently masternode logic requires a single collateral address and a single payout address (also owner and voter addresses). A masternode is not an address or account either. What else is required but to have pairs of collateral and payout addresses? Do you need a multi-sig transaction? Not necessarily. Couldn't this be implemented in such a way that each collateral address owner signs their own independent transaction identifying their collateral and payment address as well as the list of collateral addresses they will share with? Each time such a transaction is sent, nothing will happen until all shared collateral addresses have sent their own valid transaction. Once the last is sent from the shared group the masternode can be registered and added to the payment queue. The group of people who wish to run the shared masternode are responsible for getting together and figuring out who among them need to set up and maintain the actual masternode server. The masternode should still get its one vote. This could either be a single voting key or each share has its own key and last vote before the deadline counts.


No one should want to stop or necessarily replicate anything anyone does to build on top of Dash. But a simple new option for 5 and/or 10 owner masternodes is so basic and has few if any downsides that I can see.

I don't think you realise the can of worms that this opens. Whether it's 5 shared owners or 5000, the principle's the same and so are the problems.

Dash is bitcoin in terms of protocol. The blockchain works in granular units denoted by an address. Those are the "accounts". What you're describing is a meta account that would need entry, exit and balancing protocols just to support exactly the same multi-ownership logic that a single address does at the moment with multi-sig except it would need a lot more on top.

It 's neither practical nor advisable to do this on-chain IMO. It's an off-chain commercial activity.

What's more likely to happen IMO is that this type of service will be supported cross chain, along the lines of the "wrapped Dash" type of idea on say the Ethereum blockchain or one of the other De-Fi chains. That way the actual masternode collateral would continue to be held in the simple, single address configuration but all the complex business logic associated with securitising that holding would be performed on other chains. You'd probably even get multiple platforms doing it with a variety of contractural terms and conditions. (e.g. different minimum timelocks, reward address options, automated currency conversion, fee structures etc). All of that sh* is not stuff you want in the Dash blockchain. It's going to happen anyway whatever Dash does or doesn't do, and not just for masternode addresses, for ALL, so we're better off concentrating on core services that are native to the protocol layer IMO.

With a hard fork, accessing shared Mnodes on the original DASH chain is easy. Very easy. Whether the DAO hijackers like it or not.

The most surprising thing about all this party of scoundrels is that no dev with a passion for DASH has come out willing to recover the potential of this project. For my part, I'm still waiting for it.  This post is a call to it, for example. To a dev passionate about DASH ... and not the centralized slop that they have turned it into.

1000 contributors to a single collateral address? What?

No, what I clearly proposed was allowing for 10 separate 100 DASH UTXO collateral addresses (or alternatively 5 separate 200 DASH UTXO collateral addresses).

What happens when the 1000 DASH are moved from a masternode's collateral address right now? Isn't there a window where the masternode owner can move the collateral back before a check happens to kick them out of the payment queue? Why wouldn't it just work the same way with 5 or 10 collateral addresses? Just make sure they still hold what they originally went online with. And if not, then yes, the masternode is considered offline and removed from the payment queue. Nothing too complicated there.


I don't really understand this argument. Sure, DASH can't and shouldn't want to manage trusted masternode services like CrowdNode and StakeHound. But why shouldn't we want DASH to support a 5 and/or 10 owner masternode? As a bonus this might actually be good for increased privacy. Because who's to say that the 5 or 10 collateral addresses are or are not owned by the same holder?

So what happens if you have 1000 contributors to a single trustless shared collateral address and one of them moves their funds ? The entire node stops receiving rewards ?

A queing system where leavers are swapped out for joiners ? How do you then manage all that without traffic windows where the node is unserviceable ? How do you manage priority ?

This is a different type of monetary asset IMO that's more akin to proof of stake except without the simplicity. Sticking this type of service into a blockchain is the domain of de-fi, on-chain contract type stuff. The beauty of the masternode model is its simplicity and its faithfull inheritance of bitcoin's blockchain protocol where a masternode address is indistinguishable from any other address on the chain both in terms of functionality and liquidity.


With a bit if imagination it's not difficult to get the best of both worlds. Dash is a peer to peer monetary system and there's no change there but it isn't Dash's job to manage who owns its holdings and there's always going to be a contractural ecosystem "out there" away from the blockchain that grows around it. If you don't have clear demarkations between the two, you end up with nasty couplings into a world of business logic that's the thin end of a very large wedge of headaches. The gold trying to be the safe as well.

We do not want that IMO.

Again, I never used the term ROI nor was it central to anything I was bringing up.

You hijacked the conversation so you could preach your agenda without addressing the issues I brought up. And then 2 pages of conversation arguing whether one makes 6% in DASH or 6% on the USD one originally invested... I mean really? BTW, for what it's worth I'm sure the true ROI for many masternodes bought before 2017 are still making way more than 6% ROI. And I bet that after the next bull run anyone who bought masternodes 2019-2020 will also be making way more than 6% ROI. So there's a lesson maybe.... don't buy masternodes during the alt bull run?

Now, let me get back to what I thought we were really trying to discuss, making a better decentralized currency with better aligned incentives.

Through all the noise you actually made a good point. So, you're saying 5000 masternodes are enough, but maybe a masternode should have multiple owners. Almost sounds like shared masternodes, no? But you don't want this managed by the protocol but instead some kind of institution or middle man? Not sure why, when crypto's huge success has arguably been because it has eliminated middle men.

This seems to be a no-brainer, trustless shared masternodes should be top priority after Dash Platform's release. And it shouldn't even be that complicated. The code that checks for the collateral could just as easily check more than one UTXO to make sure the total is at least 1000 DASH. And the code that pay's out to a given address could just as easily pay out the correct percentage to a separate address based on the share of 1000 of each corresponding collateral address.

And maybe to make it less variable and even easier to code why not just implement it in a way where collateral addresses must either have a 1000 DASH UTXO or a 100 DASH UTXO. In the case of 100 DASH, you'd require a set of 10 separate signed transactions proving ownership of 10 separate 100 DASH UTXOs with the corresponding payout addresses. 10 too much for some technical limitation? Then make it 5 of 200 DASH each. This seems like such an easy solution to code. What would be the reason to not go forward? Did I miss something? Or are early masternode owners worried this will result in more masternodes and less DASH for themselves? I hope that's not what it is.

So is the ROI as shown by messari.io under 'Change vs BTC (7D)' :





the same way calculated as this ROI ?



How does cost of investment play a role in Messari's ROI ? Are these two ROI's not completely different ROI's ? One ROI focused on price performance and the other ROI focused on
gain from investment divided by cost of investment ?

I don't know why you're posting that.

It doesn't support your fantasy definition of "ROI" since none of them put the invested asset on the denominator of the ROI calculation as you do. They all use cost of investment at the time of purchase on the denominator, consistent with the Investopedia definition I posted above. It's just that they offer a range of results against different currencies invested.

So if you invested dollars in Dash you'd get the ROI based on the change in $USD value of Dash.

If you invested BTC in Dash you'd get the ROI based on the change in BTC value of Dash.

The only currency you CAN'T use to calculate ROI is Dash itself because you don't invest Dash in Dash.

They can also refer to the birth of Christ. Or the invention of the wheel. But that is not a valid reference for a potential investor TODAY, you shit con artist.

And those who look to DASH to value it as an investment, will see that since before ATH 2017, long before, the wealth of DASH is not amplified, but is systematically extracted. The benefits of early adopters (this time point is only valid for them, not for a current buyer) who want to fully appropriate the ecosystem have done up to that point, they don't give a shit to those who come to invest now : They see that there is an obvious drag on the chain from there. (The drain of wealth to the ATH ... and the flight of the outcast and scammed microholders, who do not keep their DASH tokens. The only thing that RTaylor did is get time and provide incentives for the idiots with more than a thousand tokens, who they are the ones who - deservedly - most ruin their own heritage, do not run away too).


pd : By the way and regarding smoke for dummies that you have dumped in previous posts ... the statistics that you falsely expose with Monero, LTC, eth, etc. dropping 50, 60 or 70% compared to ATH and DASH almost 93% are misleading. I advise newbies to read them.

The difference is not 30, 40 or 50% against DASH , as it might seem. To judge this reserve of value, it is necessary to reach THE RETAINED WEALTH, that is, 7% in DASH ... compared to that 30, 40 or 50% that the others retain ... with what those other currencies have retained 500, 600 or 700% MORE value than DASH. Absolutely ABISMAL differences. Of a "machine that did not work" compared to others.

And that is absolutely monstrous. And by the way, a large part of those idiots who have found themselves in an impasse with thousands of tokens in their possession and who see that their manipulation and appropriation of the ecosystem by centralizing it does not work and creates ruin instead of wealth (they DO they deserve it, those who were deceived, ruined and marginalized by their traps, no ) ... they are waiting for other fools to arrive to raise the price ... and fly away to leave others in their situation.

Obviously, undo their scam and DECENTRALIZE DASH as was the initial idea of ​​the project before they kidnapped it - which is what causes this lack of market interest - ... and let it flow by pure inertia to its full potential leaning in a network effect, like any other cryptocurrency does ... it's too complicated an idea for them. Sure, they did think they were rich believing RTaylor at the London 2017 world event claiming that "The sky was the limit" (while misleading businessmen and invited press there and the world public om line by confirming that at last , the testnet was ready to be launched a couple of months later - that is, knowing that it would not be delivered - ) and now, the centralized scam they created is worth ten times less and it is difficult to accept.   LOL

So all their PARTIAL "solutions" go through misleading statistics, confused words,  impossible decentralizations, etc ... while every week they see how the Bitcoins they had and exchanged fly for this garbage that, after destroying it, they want to put others in. I repeat it for the clueless ... in crypto, MASSIVE = DECENTRALIZED. Without that, there´s no solution. And since the DAO hijackers need the collaboration of a global user population who in another project, in addition to using crypto, will earn money ... you don't need to think much about the "perfect plan" of these geniuses ... geniuses only of the immorality.

In his sin of "too smart" guys, there is his penance.   Grief is the incredible shattered project that we have all been deprived of.