[ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 930.

kointrend

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Quote from: P4man on December 22, 2016, 01:08:13 PM

...at some point, the number of new master nodes will level off, as the ROI decreases and the required investment keeps going up. THis will dramatically reduce the demand for Dash, most likely resulting in a price drop. Now you have a problem. A lot of capital was invested in those nodes, owned by a lot of people who really dont care about Dash but did expect a high ROI. If just a tiny fraction of them begin pulling out, the price just has to tumble and cause a snowball effect, and I honestly dont see where the demand is going to come from to keep the price from utterly collapsing.

OH MY! THAT'S SO SCARY! Shocked

OneDayCreativeTrips

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Quote from: afreer on December 21, 2016, 06:22:29 AM

We have a paper internally at RFC stage we should release next month that should explain it a lot better than me posting a few things here

Andy

Thank you so much for taking the time to go into this level of detail here, Andy. Your explanations are a model of how to communicate complicated software concepts for a general audience.

Perhaps they will help some of the passers-by in this thread to understand why Dash is on a completely different level from every single other "alt".

On a selfish level, I'm happy every time the price dips because I think it's the buying opportunity of a lifetime. Please, doubters, sell your Dash to me Grin

P4man

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Quote from: aigeezer on December 22, 2016, 09:22:05 AM

Quote from: P4man on December 22, 2016, 07:41:01 AM

I mine all kinds of shit coins, but I dont believe or invest in them. And if mining coin X is no longer profitable, I switch to something else. Expect a similar behavior from master node operators.

Not everyone sees the world as you do.

Day-trading and coin-hopping are my idea of a wasted life. Busy, busy, busy, pushing all those tokens around. To each his own. Wink

Im doing neither myself. My point is, I invested capital in mining equipment and look to get the best return. The coin that a script selects as most profitable, enables me to do that. Which one that is, doesnt interest me one bit, I probably know nothing about it. I just care about the daily mining revenue and convert that in to some currency I do believe in.

Im sure a lot of people see dash master nodes the same way, like mining machines that dont require a ton of running cost. Like Hashtakers and Prime controllers, remember those? You invest a non trivial amount of money, to get an expected x % ROI. Which works fine as long as dash value is stable and certainly if it goes up. Which it did for quite some time. Not surprising, if people have to buy 1000 dash per node, and today what, >70% of all Dash is in such nodes?
that must have created quite a lot of demand.

Anyway, at some point, the number of new master nodes will level off, as the ROI decreases and the required investment keeps going up. THis will dramatically reduce the demand for Dash, most likely resulting in a price drop. Now you have a problem. A lot of capital was invested in those nodes, owned by a lot of people who really dont care about Dash but did expect a high ROI. If just a tiny fraction of them begin pulling out, the price just has to tumble and cause a snowball effect, and I honestly dont see where the demand is going to come from to keep the price from utterly collapsing.

Walter_S

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Quote from: afreer on December 20, 2016, 11:38:33 AM

Quote from: Walter_S on December 20, 2016, 11:17:33 AM

Quote from: afreer on December 20, 2016, 07:56:52 AM

Quote from: TanteStefana2 on December 20, 2016, 01:17:15 AM

Quote from: Kienbui on December 20, 2016, 12:37:58 AM

Super cool!

Is the Dash Evolution a open source? Everybody can deploy Evolution code on his website or we can only use Evolution on Dash.org?

Thank you,

Well, Evolution works with the Masternode network. Dash+Evolution, when it's out, can be cloned however, Masternodes are very expensive, and to create enough MN to have a chance at flubbing up the system is pretty much impossible now. If you start a clone, you have to build your network and value from scratch. This would be very difficult, though there are at least a couple of clones trying to do so. They will have to be talented enough to upgrade with Dash when new code comes out as well though??

As far as deploying Evolution, that's the cool thing. A web developer or anyone who wants to use Evolution will be able to tap into the network via the DAPI (distributed API) which will allow for all kinds of useful functions I can't even imagine myself because we're hitting the limits of my mind now, LOL. But basically, the way people make charts from exchange's API, you'll be able to make charts based on the Dash network. How many transactions per day, I dunno, whatever is of interest.

The cool thing about the DAPI is that it's completely decentralized and random access to the network itself. You can trust what is quarried as if you are running a full node yourself without running a node, without keeping a copy of the blockchain, etc... I don't think people realize how amazing this is Cheesy

"But basically, the way people make charts from exchange's API, you'll be able to make charts based on the Dash network. How many transactions per day, I dunno, whatever is of interest. "

this block explorer example is probably a good way to show how the Evolution architecture works differently to the way crypto is working currently - right now to setup a block explorer you need to a) host your own node b) implement middleware that connects your webserver to your fullnode via RPC (e.g. Bitcore-node) c) implement a frontend (e.g. Insight) that can query / search / display blocks and transaction info, and update as your fullnode detects new transactions / blocks, and relay this between your fullnode, your server and your end-user's client. d) host that infrastructure/site 24/7 for end-users and hope none of the various components you had to setup goes down.

...so currently blockexplorer users are dependent on the permission and availability of a centralized intermediary to host essentially a middleware service that lets you (a web user) connect to Dash (an RPC based P2P network) and you also have to trust the information you are getting (and this applies not just to block explorers but to basically any end-user access by web/mobile users, outside of mobile SPV wallets, which require an intermediary server but don't require as much trust to validate the data)

In Evolution, to create a block explorer,you can just cut and paste some Javascript into a web page on the client side, that calls DAPI over HTTPS and retrieves the block/tx info, and gets a callback (via websockets or polling) when new blocks are committed to the chain. If you want the least level of trust you can use multiple Masternodes and validate the data using SPV too. You can even download the HTML page and run it from your desktop so there is no server required to initially download the page each time you want to access it. Plus the data will be far more rich/informative, instead of just transactions and blocks, you can see new signups, purchases, ratings, proposals, votes, new apps and products added, etc

Then that philosophy is extended to basically all end-user services, whether you a merchant, paying customer, digial content producer / consumer, it's about ease of access then that provides the ease of use that should help remove the friction for mainstream traction.

I've got a question with regards to the Dash network's dependancy on centralised Domain Registration and DNS services... How susceptible would the dash network be to something like big government intervention through switching off our dash.org domain?

How much will on-ramps to the Evolution platform depend on Domain and DNS being available? I understand that this problem is no different for any other global company and if big Govt. really wanted to it could switch off a domain.

Just thought I'd throw the question out there!

Cheers

Walter

good question

Currently the Dash network isn't really affected by switching off dash.org, apart from it's function as an official entry point for new users and for education, news, marketing etc. That's because Dash is a P2P network where nodes/masternodes can come and go and that's all IP based. Where the DNS comes in is in the DNS seeds that nodes use on startup, which are services some people setup to return a bunch of IPs of known nodes that new nodes can connect to to enter the p2p network, and the DNS addresses of a bunch of seeds are hardcoded in the QT wallet. Each DNS seed can be shutdown by killing the DNS entry, but then users can make new ones pretty quick and end-users can enter these into their node config or failing that just enter IPs. Same process as Bitcoin.

With Evolution, we will use the same kind of system. On a webpage, there's actually a JavaScript lib that the page will include that does all the heavy lifting internally, from connecting to the MN network through to SPV through to handling users / payments, then from the webpage or a server on the site's backend, the lib is abstracted and works like exiting payment libs e.g. Stripe from an implementation perspective - so, inside that lib, we are planning to use DNS seeds in the same way. Then, even if all the seeds are shut down, you just need to enter one IP of a known Masternode and the client can go from there.

Forgot the main thing...actually Evolution will be less susceptible to censorship purely because it's HTTP based - it's a lot easier for governments to block non-standard ports/protocols e.g. for p2p usage, even a lot of organizations block non HTTP traffic (that means your browser and mobile app will still connect, but anything not on port 80/443 is blocked). But if you connect directly to the Dash p2p network using HTTPS over port 443 to an IP, censors have no way to block you without blocking every site and service they don't want to censor. Of course they could block the MN IPs, but as it's a p2p network where you can move a masternode in a short time, it wouldn't be a very effective censorship method, and there are ways we can prevent that too.

Thanks for the detailed response Andy, much appreciated

Walter

tr8081

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Quote from: DARKHOLDER on December 20, 2016, 09:06:38 AM

Dash in 3 place! Wink

http://cryptorials.io/best-cryptocurrency-investments-2017/

And here is Monero in 1st place, actually doing science: opening article in 1st edition of the Ledger Journal
http://www.ledgerjournal.org/ojs/index.php/ledger/issue/view/2/showToc

Did Evan submit the Evolution Paper to Ledger yet? Here you can do: http://www.ledgerjournal.org/ojs/index.php/ledger/about/contact

It already found an exploit that lets attackers create coins from nothing in secret. How many more flaws are there hiding?

https://nickler.ninja/blog/2016/12/17/a-problem-with-ringct/

Bitcoin, Dash don't have this flaw.

qwizzie

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Quote from: TanteStefana2 on December 22, 2016, 01:43:36 AM

Quote from: Taylor05 on December 22, 2016, 12:27:53 AM

Proposal: Dash Offices at Arizona State University's SkySong Innovation Center

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-offices-at-asus-skysong-innovation-center.12502/

This proposal funds the acquisition of office space at the SkySong Innovation Center in Scottsdale Arizona.

I think Dash will actually be the first coin ever to get an office. Not one provided for by another company or university or something, not a 3rd party provider, but an actual network paid office! That's pretty amazing!

And, if you read the proposal, it's an amazing choice. Seriously, everyone should read this proposal, and if you don't get chills up and down your spine, you're either all in on another coin (Bitcoin?) or dead, LOL.

It is pretty amazing indeed, shows real dedication to the Dash Project.

aigeezer

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Cryptanalyst castrated by his government, 1952

Quote from: P4man on December 22, 2016, 07:41:01 AM

I mine all kinds of shit coins, but I dont believe or invest in them. And if mining coin X is no longer profitable, I switch to something else. Expect a similar behavior from master node operators.

Not everyone sees the world as you do.

Day-trading and coin-hopping are my idea of a wasted life. Busy, busy, busy, pushing all those tokens around. To each his own. Wink

P4man

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Bitcoins where not bought in the hope of obtaining a bitcoin denominated profit. They where bought because people expected the currency itself to do well relative to its then current price. Well, in fairness, some where, like during Pirate's ponzi or a handful of clueless cloud miners, but thats very different than those master nodes, the bulk of which represent investments expecting a dash denominated profit, and so are much more comparable to an investment in mining equipment. I mine all kinds of shit coins, but I dont believe or invest in them. And if mining coin X is no longer profitable, I switch to something else. Expect a similar behavior from master node operators.

UdjinM6

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Quote from: P4man on December 22, 2016, 05:07:42 AM

When just a dozen masternodes decide its time to cut their losses, thats enough volume to crash dash price on poloniex to ~zero. So if that masternode chart shows anything right now, then Id describe it as a ticking nuclear bomb.

Let me help you.

Quote

When just a dozen of <large currency holders> decide its time to cut their losses, thats enough volume to crash <currency> price on <exchanges> to ~zero. So if that <coin supply> chart shows anything right now, then Id describe it as a ticking nuclear bomb.

https://blockchain.info/charts/total-bitcoins

Riseman

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Quote from: Riseman on December 16, 2016, 10:10:29 AM

Quote from: DARKHOLDER on December 16, 2016, 09:40:33 AM

Any news on DASH? Why it goes up?

Probably to short the next BTC move from a higher level.

Wow. Was actually trolling in hope that someone will prove me wrong, but alas. I guess it's hard to shill Dash and not feel like a hypocrite these days.

P4man

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When just a dozen masternodes decide its time to cut their losses, thats enough volume to crash dash price on poloniex to ~zero. So if that masternode chart shows anything right now, then Id describe it as a ticking nuclear bomb.

EdgarTheEdge

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Quote from: Terzo2 on December 22, 2016, 02:43:06 AM

What a bloodbath! It's really painfull watching dash getting dumped.
... It does not make any sens!

May it depends on the rise of Bitcoin? Often altcoins go down when BTC is up.

megges

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Quote from: P4man on December 22, 2016, 04:19:00 AM

Sure it makes sense. Most dash are stored in master nodes. Acquiring those 1000 dash to be able to set up a master node is what mainly fueled its past bull run. That by itself further increased demand for dash to set up more masternodes, closing the loop. Those people didnt buy dash because "they believed", but because they expected a ~10-20% ROI on a rallying currency. Particularly compelling during a period where bitcoin was pretty stagnant.

But once the price starts going down for whatever reason, like a BTC rally, that ROI goes up in smoke and those same master node operators will run to the exits. Because they own so much of the currency, cause a snowball effect. Especially when bitcoin is rallying.

As is, the masternode system creates its own price volatility, fueling bubbles on its way up, and in all likelihood, bloodbaths on its way down.

If i look at the masternode count (http://178.254.23.111/~pub/masternode_count.png) im not so sure that the decline is based on masternode owners ... its more like traders are responsible, bitcoin goes up, so short all alts - if the btc bubble ends we will see some pretty big green candles, like everytime the trading crowd jumps from shorts to longs, or the other way around.

P4man

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Sure it makes sense. Most dash are stored in master nodes. Acquiring those 1000 dash to be able to set up a master node is what mainly fueled its past bull run. That by itself further increased demand for dash to set up more masternodes, closing the loop. Those people didnt buy dash because "they believed", but because they expected a ~10-20% ROI on a rallying currency. Particularly compelling during a period where bitcoin was pretty stagnant.

But once the price starts going down for whatever reason, like a BTC rally, that ROI goes up in smoke and those same master node operators will run to the exits. Because they own so much of the currency, cause a snowball effect. Especially when bitcoin is rallying.

As is, the masternode system creates its own price volatility, fueling bubbles on its way up, and in all likelihood, bloodbaths on its way down.

Terzo2

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What a bloodbath! It's really painfull watching dash getting dumped.
... It does not make any sens!

wackyD

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Quote from: TanteStefana2 on December 22, 2016, 01:43:36 AM

Quote from: Taylor05 on December 22, 2016, 12:27:53 AM

Proposal: Dash Offices at Arizona State University's SkySong Innovation Center

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-offices-at-asus-skysong-innovation-center.12502/

This proposal funds the acquisition of office space at the SkySong Innovation Center in Scottsdale Arizona.

I think Dash will actually be the first coin ever to get an office. Not one provided for by another company or university or something, not a 3rd party provider, but an actual network paid office! That's pretty amazing!

And, if you read the proposal, it's an amazing choice. Seriously, everyone should read this proposal, and if you don't get chills up and down your spine, you're either all in on another coin (Bitcoin?) or dead, LOL.

holy crap! yes!

dafdaf

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Quote from: megges on December 22, 2016, 02:02:35 AM

my bid @ 0.01115 just got filled - btc seems to it's job - 850 $ oO

I'm really curious how / where that btc bubble will end - and what it'll mean for DASH.

All the more so as BTC volumes are incredibly low for a spike...

megges

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my bid @ 0.01115 just got filled - btc seems to it's job - 850 $ oO

I'm really curious how / where that btc bubble will end - and what it'll mean for DASH.

TanteStefana2

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Quote from: Taylor05 on December 22, 2016, 12:27:53 AM

Proposal: Dash Offices at Arizona State University's SkySong Innovation Center

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-offices-at-asus-skysong-innovation-center.12502/

This proposal funds the acquisition of office space at the SkySong Innovation Center in Scottsdale Arizona.

I think Dash will actually be the first coin ever to get an office. Not one provided for by another company or university or something, not a 3rd party provider, but an actual network paid office! That's pretty amazing!

And, if you read the proposal, it's an amazing choice. Seriously, everyone should read this proposal, and if you don't get chills up and down your spine, you're either all in on another coin (Bitcoin?) or dead, LOL.

Taylor05

sr. member

Activity: 265

Merit: 250

Proposal: Dash Offices at Arizona State University's SkySong Innovation Center

https://www.dash.org/forum/threads/proposal-dash-offices-at-asus-skysong-innovation-center.12502/

This proposal funds the acquisition of office space at the SkySong Innovation Center in Scottsdale Arizona.

Topic: [ANN][DASH] Dash (dash.org) | First Self-Funding Self-Governing Crypto Currency - page 930. (Read 9723748 times)